Session Start: Thu Apr 05 16:26:42 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Presentation Sat 1500 EDT "Honor" from The Syntopicon' *** Set by Ragtime^ on Thu Apr 05 05:53:56 jackson is *bizarrely* funny - to avoid joking about him makes it worse i think he's damn weird - why NOT joke about hiM? hmm? why not? well, boofuls, i think that casual public and repeated mocking of serious social problems (and intense personal problems) is really revolting (and all to common, from the anti-clinton inquisition to the OJ trial). But i do suspect that Michael Jackson has a problem with small kids. Check out "If you don't buy this book, we'll shoot this dog" for example. *** Disconnected Session Close: Thu Apr 05 16:28:40 2001 Session Start: Thu Apr 05 16:29:00 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Presentation Sat 1500 EDT "Honor" from The Syntopicon' *** Set by Ragtime^ on Thu Apr 05 05:53:56 or the amatuer chilli taster one? pryor/murphy et al - oh great - but dice clay ohhhh noooo can't take it *** Grumbler has joined #philosophy i found all of them funny *** `Vicky` has joined #philosophy *** Disconnected Session Start: Sat Apr 07 22:24:23 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'nihilism' *** Set by Ragtime^ on Sat Apr 07 23:06:13 merc, I agree. Seems to me that anything could be a religion. as long as it instills values. A religion seems to be defined by, among other things, a faith. no matter how hair-brained. It's certainly possible to have value-free religions. I think one necessary components of religions is that they have a god or gods, in the sense of supernatural, sentient entities who are able to control various facets of the world. component, that is I disagree, CK; Taoism is notable in its lack of a supernatural sentient entity Well, I don't really subscribe to religion, but i do have values. Anything that doesn't have that doesn't qualify in my view. I don't consider Taoism a religion. fair enough -] I don't consider Zen a religion either, for that matter. It's a borderline case even at the best of times it's the state religion of Japan, isn't it? I like the concept of liberty: self government. A man that by free-will holds certain ideals in high esteem, recognizing thier benefits and living by thier dictations. I thought Shintoism was. I dont like green interesting the parallels that i found in modern philosophy to Zen and Tao, even in Nihlism. Or if it's not official (which I'm not sure about), I thought it was so practically. confusion might be a religion too, depending how you practise it haha I definitely agree to that mar. :) beauty is my religion improvement, happiness and love as ideals shed light on many more specific ideals that are objective in nature and can be applied universally. JanineL: not american beauty though, i'm sure ;) no that movie was too ugly Anyway . . . got to run for now. Talk to you tomorrow morning. I dreamt of it all night acorn beauty fades awww :( so weird helius, what's up? whazaaaap. haha i say like tha spanish waiter, " i know noooothing", and im happy that way You had some interesting things to say here. Thanks :D You must read a lot? Manuel It's rare that people appreciate what I say. thanks merc for some reason... aw, I doubt that. they probably just forget to tell you. actually I have read only millions of lines of text on IRC. few books have been in front of me that can be informative sometimes. I dont have the privacy or the time I agree with Janine about beauty. If a thing is beautiful you will forgive it a multitude of faults and they say rhetoric is dead. pshaw. I love reading, though. Yeah, I mostly read technical manuals and boring stuff like that. oh yeah...those are great. haha yeah right. I have considered becoming an engineer. I know nothing is schultz to me I guess there is something to be said for mastering a technical subject, but can be so tedious. yeah schultz? frustrating even.\ all subjects have their technicalities and you have to master them math is sooo booooring. some maths are. hogans hereos I would like to get more into math. I like abstract theory stuff. what types of maths arent boring topology is neat, or I think so topology? Chaos theory is cool. is that related to geography? the study of mathematical spaces it can be related to geography what are mathematical spaces? that's usually how most people approach it not topography? helius, counting the money you got for your birthday is funny yes, funnny. heh el cero A mathematical space is something like, for example, 12-space containing the point (-4, 12i, i, -15, 122.22, x, y, z, x+y, y+z, z+2, 0) gäsp how is that a space (I'm interested in space but I never heard of topology) well, it's a space in the sense that a space is a set of points you can also do things like mathematically derive that there can only be 5 platonic solids in 3-dimensional space which I think is kinda neat like an area of a face full of freckles? math, so far, has never confused me...its only a matter of learning the relations between things based on signs and equations, laws of relation, etc... mathematical proofs are good training, anyways * JanineL agrees with helius what is ao.net? an ISP :) where are you located? by the time you become an expert in something -- it'll probably become tedious. we're a society of inane specialization. i like to ponder a subject for a time -- but it quickly reaches a state of 'diminishing returns', where another subject then becomes more interesting. perhaps this is just me. I have never heard of them. orlando fla, USofA. I had lousy maths teachers - they turned me off for life * JanineL agrees with feef oh cool. where are you from?> virginia err, located. Ive been there. beautiful place. civilized Northern Virginia to be precise. where did you go? williamsburg oh cool nighty is this a private conversation? stayed in kingstan resort area kingston that area is pretty nice. Tidewater region, nice place. please do your private chatting elsewhere............. right right. heh [wheel] Is prohibiting consensual eugenics justified? we're bad. Yes lol who knows? nobody does eugenics any more I was being the topic thumper earlier. I do Neutrogenics. I think consensual eugenics is a practice inherent in the instinctual makeup of sexual attraction. You can't prohibit dumb people from getting themselves killed, which is pretty much the oldest form of eugenics around. Eugenics: a totally discredited pseudo-science based on completely outmoded assumptions I still have no idea what the question is. waht, recessive traits? Project, believe me it doesn't matter is that what makes eugenics pseudo? any deleuzians in here? not me [wheel] What is the point of equality of opportunities? what kind of inequalities does equality of opportunities seek to remove and on what basis? Huh? what do you mean by opportunity? Huh indeed ! the ability to do something I agree with Project4 the ability or the opportunity? * Project_4 has read that 4 times and is feeling mighty stupid now. Project, don't blame yourself That topic seems to be a paraphrase of "What am I talking about?" equal opporunity = sharing the same abilities to do something, or be involved with something, or not. haha *** Disconnected Session Close: Sat Apr 07 22:46:27 2001 Session Start: Sun Apr 08 05:20:34 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "What do you know? What do you think, what do you wonder..." Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sun Apr 08 00:19:03 close enough for IRC anyway diidn't reference her:) a crow will crap on the president jbn- orso you suppose ;) poetic licence:) * Echolalia taps her spacebar with great aggitation LOL jbn- i didnt know poetic license legalized dissection ;) *** Echolalia is now known as BluMonday *** X sets mode: +o BluMonday did i do violence to her meaning? jbn...vaguely ;D besides she's dead:) i have put my life on the line for humans,for other animals i didn't know and don't know why * BluMonday just heard ol' edna turn over in her grave ;) but tuesday's just as bad the eagle flies on friday i have no God,no guru,no rules yet sometimes i am a real nice guy I burn my candle at both ends, > It will not last the night. > But oh, my foes, and ah, my friends, > It gives a lovely light. * BluMonday pins the Nice Guy Award on reel's shirt jbn- *bravo* better i hope ;) much! :D such purists i could be at a wild party now yet that didn't interest me tonight she bores me jbn- or in my case, such an english/lit major ;P all is pure well read Emily then VEto :) read her - she is boring too what isn't pure? what does a woman who has never loved know about love? Enquirer then veto- she did love once...but iam thinking it was terribly one-sided ;) how do you know she hasn't loved? so while she is ignorant about love, perhaps..she could write volumes on yearning :P i trash Totality because all words,all actions never dent Totality Earth is a speck of dust well your doing a heck of a job Reel LOL jbn: it is a know fact about her and Blu - yearning and loving are two different things veto- no KIDDING. wow, i had NO idea. THANK you veto, for setting me straight on that :P kinda satifying to feel you can't dent it with a truck loving being what? even a very educated,very attractive woman is not much to Totality - Totality doesn't even think about her LOL BluMonday - thank you for the debate. who's Totality veto- surely you're joking? lol :) totality doesn't think .<---(period) all or nothing or the mystery or the void or who knows what? surely some little tiny bits of thinking occur in Totality just because saying everything is nothing makes your head spin doesnt mean its profound * BluMonday smiles of course I was joking - I was waiting for you to take me on defending her Zen ain't profound unless you get on that trip they do for sure ..as humanity. But humanitie's thinking isn't totality y's veto- no thanks :) * Hanna- peeks in notin the mood to delve into a pointless opinion-battle this evening er...night yeah - it would be a difficult position to defend "pointless" read that tear=jerking poet if you like but don't get stuck there hmmmm just because your head is shaped like a light bulb doesn't mean your bright:) veto..well.. "pointless" cane to mind first lol you're jbn- my bright what? ;P dickensoon wasn't very "tear jerking" life won't fit in a book nor an entire encyclopedia you are so a differing opinion equates it to be "pointless" interesting prolly two pedias building a bridge has rules,has proper details math has rules veto- not even going to delve into it with you dear. your comprehension of what i was expressing already determines that it'd be a waste of time to go any further with the matter. ;) consider it dismissed dear. lol at least by me. if anyone else wants to pick up the other end of it and tug for awhile, feel free. a termite can build a bridge . It doesn't need a degree life poops out,flows out like a flood water jbn- i thought termites ATE bridges :P dear? dickenson new more about love than most people aside from any lack in bedroom gymnastics honey? the PhD writes a wonderful book but that book isn't quite like him/her in daily living you can't have your bridge and eat it LOL jbn lol...i will keep that in mind :) knew no - I am neither ot you - just call me by my nickname - thanks * BluMonday smirks mmhmm ;) some hillbilly boy might be able to beat up that karate master you are impressed by yep or a hillbilly and his 12 brothers and sisters keine jewish in mine country we often desire a master,a mentor,a big mommy or daddy heil mir jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja jajajajajajaja LOL jajajajajajaja *** matzu was kicked by Skept (You are banned) *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*mihai33@213.233.66.* ALL YE PHILOSOPHERS, BEHOLD: I HEREBY APOLOGISE FOR BROTHER SOLIDARO HE HATH LEARNED THE WRONG OF HIS WAYS *** BluMonday sets mode: +b *!*frank@*.rchstr1.mn.home.com *** crackpipe was kicked by S|ye (bye) reelnot: To win a fight, you need not necessarily wield injury... the opponent who wields the most pain usually wins... who is solidaro? *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*@168.209.88.* in today's world a piece of gravel can be a piece of gold - harrah for hollywood! LOL *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*winkle@*.pr.mcs.net no one knows, but he knows better now *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*tzaran@217.10.203.* the sage is a fool too but he is probably a kid and doesn't care right? *** BluMonday sets mode: +b *!*marco@212.93.140.* eat some dolphin and give the tuna a break :-) hmm "A" is not "A" reelNot save a squirrel and let a big whale die on the beach save me ok :-) Stop the drought: flush only once per day there's a savings there save you from? bad stuff from the functional psychosis the thoughts,images,feelings ReelNot: none exist i am dead i am dead JanineL: Bad stuff can be good stuff it feels good can't escape it yes, you are :-) good evening #philosophy, is there a topic? bad stuff is bad stuff, good stuff is good stuff yes Totality but Great Stuff is urethane Indianmik: topic: why is Indianmik such a faggot *** d8 is now known as d8-brb pick a piece of Totality *** BluMonday sets mode: +b *!*crud@*.rh.psu.edu well time to take Schrodinger the cat for a walk . This will probably kill him but we can't say fur shure LOL I see you have an angry mind here tonight *** crudmonky was kicked by BluMonday (no use projecting your homosexual tendencies on others) cat ciao that makes my inner child laugh philosophy isn't gay, so why are all of you gay? *** BluMonday sets mode: +b *!*niekze@*.telocity.com Janina :-) *** niekze was kicked by BluMonday (let's just say it's a hobby) what an ood reason to kick someone.......... gay is nothing straight is nothing veto: www.philosophy-irc.com * Indianmik likes blumonday if there are any further questions yin is yang indian- how sweet of you ;) or possibly, how sarcastic of you. not sure yet we desire our favorite jargon (no use projecting your homosexual tendencies on others) <-- just curious - if someone is homosexual and wishes to discuss it on here in a philosophical way - is it permitted? lingo me right * BluMonday smiles weakly and blinks her eyes I like people that do their job well, those people weren't here for discussion veto: absolutely. say stuff i be diggin' homey stroketh me gay is the fasion for the 21st century, its in style [wheel] Is adherence to the principle of non-contradiction necessary for reasonable discussion? make me look good veto: when it crosses into the realm of mudslinging (ie calling folks "faggots")..then it is not exactly philosophical anymore. Blu: Can I ask you why I get messages from people on here like this: go to #faggotphilosophers is this typical for this channel? lol life is full of seeming contradictions - is it not? philosophically ...it always seems like they're *makin fun o mummy* :) cling to a few frames of the movie reel yet realise those aren't the whole movie reelnot: if life were full of contradictions then the things which it was full of would actually not be contradictory. so if you percieve it as such, it is just your perception and understanding which is faulty reel what does it mean if they are the only decent frames in a bad movie? be a Christain,a Buddhist,a this or that for awhile if you like the wildest and the boldest behaviour usually is what becomes cool reelnot: contradictions (paradoxes, rather) cannot exist. i like the whole movie i like being alive yes the pain makes the pleasure even nicer what does the pain do to the humdrum everyday? It's the premise, (non-contradiction), that's faulty, rah in my early teens i lived with an Italian couple that would fight hard and make up soooooooo tenderly and passionately LOL some sorts of pain can take away the ability for pleasure rah: Actually life is a contradiction lionclan: the premise cannot be faulty by definition. A=A. this principle is invoked any time you start talking about "things" pain and pleasure flow thru the same gate *** d8-brb is now known as d8 pain helps increase your pain threshold and the real world is inherently contradictory lionclan: if you can get around talking about "things" (e.g. definineable entities of any sort), well, then it's another story :) contraction and expansion stiff and relaxed pain will always be forgotten ... eventually johnguru: provide an example. hot and cold yin and yang humans just love making opposing flavours what! john is still here? "We make war so that we may live in peace." - Aristotle has anybody had lemon flavored ice cream? thats great we understand simple relationships rah, I was thinking about that. One thing... the sun is at sunrise, the sun is at sunset. Not sequentially, but simultaneously. Right now. JanineL a good friend will do his/her part :-) "near, far.....near, far" -grover a taoist genius in his own right no? we desire intense jam up friends JG, not to forget high noon... the thing is, rationalizing contradiction is so commonplace that it's hard to think of examples until you trip yourself d8, right, and every time in between :) we want to be jump started often LOL johnguru: you will have to be more clear with your example. are you saying that we define "sunrise" and "sunset" by similar conditions, the only difference being an irrelevancy (serial progression of events leading up to said condition)? nicely put johng a refined lady desires a passionate savage that isn't just a monster LOL Hi everyone rah, mm.. I am meaning that because the earth is spherical, any attempt to characterize the sun's location in reference to that leads to personal frameworks, and these frameworks are in contradcition to each other.. and yet these are *all* the frameworks The "Morning Star" is the "Evening Star." hi Adler afternoon ppls:) rah, since logic and consistency -- the rule of coherency -- MUST be observed, the problem is to find a space in which the contradiction can be banished. TO achieve that, one proceeds by making an abstract space called "objective reality" .. which no one can see, but which can be made in the mind the west is the bunker of morning .... hehehe Al Gore is a verminous commie. Hi Calli :) johnguru: that is a lousy example. A) frameworks explain reality, not define it. therefore, the frameworks can be fallacious while not contradicting each other by virtue of their existance. lo adler:) rah, glad you liked it :) johnguru: B) the question of "the sun's location" is erroneus and realizing this solves the problem of contradictory frameworks (which isnt a problem anyway). i bet Jiddu Krishnamurti was intense with his secret mistress - even a great boyscout needs an out,a release,a inspiration johng I think he missed the point rah, as I said, those are all the frameworks Indian, yeah I know *** sihs is now known as sihsaway I thought it was elegant johnguru: in the end, all there is is perceptions of the sun. none contradict because none speak to anything more than percpetion <- The Ultimate Philosopher sven- we heard you the first time. johnguru: if you are making an "everything is subjective" claim ("everything is a framework" is close) then there is no basis for arguing that subjective things are contradictory. becaues they're subjective. sihsaway or sataway hiya peeps rah, the way I see it, a person either gets it, or they don't :) Hi Fading the great philosopher is a snake that swollows him/herself wholely *** fading_co is now known as Leon^Mc swallows too LOL *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*justme@*.look.ca that's another example. Two minds, considering a topic with the same evidence, ariving at different conclusions *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*kinetic28@203.101.123.* johnguru: i dont care much whether you call what i say a framework or not. all that matters is that my framework happens to be objective rather than subjective. and that framework doesnt contradict other things. *** BluMonday sets mode: -b *!*cep@*.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net *** BluMonday sets mode: +b *!*ID@*.ipt.aol.com im a student at university, and taking an anthropology class, the class teaches that science is not a religion, i disagree, how about you all? hahaha rah............ you're objective........... science good. religion bad. the subjective is objective too - psychosis is real too good not bad. therefore science not a religion. Leon: I agree with the professor. johnguru: two minds considering the same topic arrive at different conclusions. point out why this is contradictory/logically impossible good science takes nothing on faith, good science is the opposite of religion hmm, maybe we are simply assuming different meanings for science and religion a dog chasing his/her tail or tale is real,is really spinning rah, the mind must be treated in this case as a black box. The world is the input. The conclusons are the output. Now you have the strange phenomenon of the same input yielding both A and ~A. :) oh, so scientist do not have faith in their data? johnguru: why do you assume the content of both minds is exactly the same? that is...obviously not true. rah, the content cannot be observed, only the output. How dare you say they're not the same? :) simple faith is not religion leon did you come to play ord twisting semantic games or ask an opinion? johnguru: you input X, a certain process happens, you get Y. you input X, a different process happens, you get Z. sounds reasonable to me! im simply curious rah, not really. Even if you have a macintosh, you will sometimes get 1+1=2 :) faith? what is that? why have that? johnguru: last time i had this discussion i was informed by someone that the doppler effect proves the inherent subjectivity and lack of objective truth of everything in the universe (and the universe). but that is because the person is looking at it in a myopic, limited way... 1+1=2 only under special conditions. i wonder if a deer has faith? rah, I think you're arguing that the minds are not rational. Given that, the same inputs are processed in conflicting and unsupportable ways, yielding to a randomization of the results in nature, 1+1 can equal any number. the data ,to the scientist proves itself, religion cannot exist without blind faith but under special conditions, 1+1 will equal 2. johnguru: certain types of input are not addressable in terms of rationality rah, or, you have it that the world is different for each mind, so that the processing is based on different inputs... but that proves the premise that the world is contradictory, prima facie a deer will continue even if it doesn't feel positive,full of faith,etc. LOL johnguru: say person A likes beethoven and person B doesnt. this isnt a question of rationality. say person B projects his opinions onto the universe as truth -- that makes him irrational. johnguru: i am most definitely not arguing what you have stated. a cat howling is classical music too rah, I submit that it IS irrational, since beethoven's Symphony #5 is an invariant in the experiment. It's the same for both listeners "likes" is being rational or not? set off M-80s regularly near my bed and i will soon fall asleep as though in deep silence rational usually means, justified by reality, yes/no? *** Disconnected Session Close: Sun Apr 08 06:09:53 2001 Session Start: Tue Apr 10 23:22:32 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by vonSanta on Tue Apr 10 17:30:58 so who created God Frankie? <_DragonFl> yep eternla damnation coming up for JanineL God has no beginning or end how? <_DragonFl> God don't have a mind of his own how does something not start? that's the point of god, Joffy, he's the first cause hes? He is the alpha and the amega well, it how is God a man? i say he because this is the christian convention *** hnt sets mode: +b *!*342@*.ipt.aol.com i do not mean that god has genitalia, or anything so god is the unervers? or does he exsist out side our unervers? some say that if the world exists, someone has created it... sorry it not he do you like being precise angrymob ...but why not say that the world has no beginning and no end? i love it <_DragonFl> there is no need for a god hey bluebird and how do you think, is there place for precison in philosophy greetings all:) hi gypsy:) whether or not there is a need for something has little to do with its existence, though <_DragonFl> bluebird^: greetings hi BB or probably philosophy is your second love, you study something else? hi dragonFl i think lack of precision gets in the way of proper philosophy, yes... and i do study something else hey Joffy:) well i think your all a figment of my imagination and i am realy alseep :o) you will all die when i wake up :o) thanks for being honest lack of precision leads to bridges falling down how can something exist outside the universe? that defeats the very concept of the universe put JanineL, it also leads to biulding them i dont know Vec just trying to understand what this god thing is :o) precision is power to buid them there are many calculations for example, and in them there is for example 'pi', calculated only py approximation <_DragonFl> god can't exist- end of discussion karaibrah, absolute precision may not be possible <_DragonFl> it would be impossible <_DragonFl> how's that for precisiion..... but greater precision usually leads to better results (in this case, better understanding) mutations are creativity like, in _DragonFl's above formulation, it would help if he explained what he meant by 'god', more clearly, since he could mean anything ranging from the creator to that guy who hung out with methuselah and enoch probably, but then isn't it better to live up with some unprecision in oreder to achieve higher one then to stick with the 'absolutely correct' can i be god for the day? in order to achieve higher one? higher precission i mean * _DragonFl meant both. beacuse the creator of the universe could not exist within it's creation. And anochs friend could not be a god you mean, isn't it better to approximate than to seek perfection? as with anything, i'd say you seek as much precision as you find necessary necessary, but as in _DragonFl's case - what's 'necessary'? in that case, whatever it takes for me to understand what _DragonFl means by "god" and in this case it takes for me to understand what you mean by 'necessity' a bilogical urge? a mental demand? here necessity is dictated by curiosity, i suppose i understand mulling it over, I think if David Hume had been pushed or encouraged even a little bit, he would've come out as an out and out atheist. in an absolute sense it's not "necessary" that i know what _DragonFl means by god i think i felt the same way when i read hume, although i don't remember why, now probably we'd better be more careful using things like 'absolute' or 'relative' he came against an afterlife, and various other standard religious doctrines but I'm not sure whether he ever wrote that he didn't believe in god at all but the problems lies that we all use different definitions and in channel like that it's nearly impossible as you see to make a 'meaningful' talk, as long as 'meaningful' stand for giving joy *** hnt sets mode: +o BluMonday Time for bed says Joffy night Joffy:)) night BB :o) night all <_DragonFl> night [_DragonFl:#philosophy PING] <_DragonFl> hmm i hate lag how much philosophy really goes on here? depends what you consider philosophy what's your guess ouque? [wheel] none Are we murderers when we knowingly allow children in the world to suffer and die of hunger while we have the means to save one or more of them? no then 'none' i actually study philosophy, interesting and you thought i found a playground here? is that a question? you i mean, sorry i was bored a freudian mistake <_DragonFl> ouque, how far have you come in your study no, becasue it was a conscious decision to come here, is reckless disregard for human life considered murder? as you say bored, may i ask you how do you think - are smarter people more capable of 'boring' or the opposite? 3rd year undergranduate isn't that like man-2? where was the Bible originated? council of nicea, 326 AD depends on the audience is there a lawyer in the house? <_DragonFl> ouque, where are you studying? university, in england ouque, i'm asking in 'genera', jsut an oppinion, that's all - no wrong answers it depends on the audience, especially the more relativist we go perhasp the 'smart' are considered more boring because they are more specific to a particular subject and can only talk about that at depth or studious i think we would run across those imprecisions when we use the term 'smart', karaibrah no, angrymob, i'm asking him in his own sense of 'smart' how do you define 'smart' and i'll tell you if it's boring but i'm afraid i wasn't clear enough - if man A talks to man B, how the time needed B to be bored relates on B's 'smartness' providing that A's one is constant 'smart' - what you think of it oh i'm interested in your own view of your own 'property' boredom is inversely proportional to intellegence. but there is a limit. at a certain point of stupidity, boredom ceases to exist. *** acorn_bsy is now known as acorn_f depends again, but ultimately this depends on what is meant by 'smart' - i read a book recently that listed like 5 different kinds of intelligence common sense, knowledge etc. all different things and you can probably subdivide that into 25 types and then subdivide that again no i don;t hink so, is my answer to whether smart people get bored quicker, they perhaps require less explanation hi guys hi From_UK hi acorn female -bluebird^- -(private)- you cannot be in a sex channel AND here per the guideline (G-9) make your choice, thanks for your cooperation dragonf1 - did you get my answer before you were disconected? do you have to be asexual to be intersted in philosophy ? *** X sets mode: +b *!*UK@*.easynet.co.uk *** From_UK was kicked by X ((bluebird) fractious) from_uk - no, but it sometimes helps i think it helps :) hehe :) thats an odd rule nietzche had sex with one person, got siphiliss and went mad <_DragonFl> oque: no i din't get your answer :) this was before he became a philosopher, right? i'd hate it if my girlfriend said i couldnt have sex anymore if i philosophised. i know what i'd choose and it dont begin with p bobbycom..too much info.. i said that i don't thing 'smart' people get bored quicker, at most they just need less explanation please respect the purpose of the channel and choose a philosophical topic [wheel] Where do you draw the boundary between yourself and the external world? it's normaly the philosopher who decides that they can't be distracted <_DragonFl> ok, I agree :) my fingernails and my epithelium dragonf1- intelligence is nearly impossible to define, so... it doesn't mean that much bluebird please find something interesting to talk about [wheel] Are hunters who ENJOY the feeling of power from snuffing the life of an animal, lacking some aspect of basic humanity? another wheel spin? skept- merlau-ponty said that your body is the localised field of yuor perceptions, that's where the boundary is drawn *** SadDream is now known as Dreamweav again no goodness seems like a slanted question.."snuffing the life" a moral lack at best skept i ate a bug today and bobby? [wheel] If the death penalty was in effect only for murder committed between noon and midnight Mondays, would this change murder statistics? Would the answer to this question have relevance to the deterrent effect of the death penalty? bluebird: and does it make me less humane? I dont think that was the point of the question bobby doesn't this question belongin #politics? does morality/values in general belong within the domain of philosophy? well bluebird i didnt have to eat it but someone dared me <_DragonFl> deathpenalty is no good <_DragonFl> espesially teh conviction of children <_DragonFl> us is one of 2 coutries than sentence children to death angrymob - yes, i have spent many a happy moment studying the ethics of aristotle, kant and st. agustine. it all sucks but nietzsche is good amorality, you mean no, i mean... morality is like religion (maybe is religion), it's merely axiomatic in a sense, but it is possible to have morality without god there's little room for philosophy... <_DragonFl> oque,can you tell me a bit about nietzsche's morality dinner...bbl.. ....i'm having problems remembering if he gave any positive accounts, he hated judaism and christianity with a passion why did he hate judaism and christianity? and famously said "god is dead, but his shadow will live on, like the shadow of buddah that has continued for over 2000 years they were reactive, and crap and dogmatic and hypocritical yeah god the concept is dead it always has and will be i have to go re <_DragonFl> se ya later oque quiet <_DragonFl> hmm nobody here? bk.... why so quiet? *** X sets mode: +o Cassandra <_DragonFl> where is everybody? [wheel] We are equal in our humanity. Some people are superior? _DragonFl... some of us now are ...:) Skept...some people are clearly superior in all sorts of things... what sorts of things? but we should have egalitarianism... the 100m dash? writing, poetry, music, intelligence.... you name it... i wouldn't name intelligence writing, poetry and music you could make an argument for angrymob.. you think we are all equally intelligent? everyone could potentialy have a superiority over others if looked for hard enough although you can probably really only measure incompetence i don't think there's a good enough definition of 'intelligence' for it to be a worthwhile yardstick superiority of a particular skill/skills "intelligence is what iq tests measure", even psychologist admit that you're right i think angrymob angrymob.. it's not one of those words we have to define... just understand and recognise... like pornography, eh? *** gacakcay is now known as girgkahve iq tests are baised of course iq tests are biased... that's not the point, the point is, is there a way for iq tests NOT to be biased? bobbyconn... all tests are based, we only stive for impartiality... well, IQ tests don't even strive for impartiality biased... i dont think there is a way 4 iq tests to not be biased angrymob.. why not? they were designed with racist/nationalist biases they are tests for something that isn't ever defined, so they could not be correct by definition demonstrate that white europeans are more intelligent/superior or, white americans of european origin, rather I think the tests are correct unto the conditions of the test...surely? if you're still interested, nietzsche drew up a kind of 'evolution' of morals, and showed how there is no such thing as good and evil thats what i heard 2 kinda angrymob i'm not sure what you mean... angrymob.. so then we need more black/African tests... angrymob- I have seen IQ tests and I am not sure how it could possibely be biased in the ways you are saying ooops freelance it could Cassandra, how would you measure the intelligence of an unwilling subject? freelance, there's language biases, instruction biases familiarity with types of problems ouque... Nietzsche was not anti semitic... he was against Christianity though...:) i.e., if you've been confronted with IQ tests all your life, you'll do better on them than someone who has just come out of the jungle there have been studies in this field - iq tests could be flexible to fit every colture literacy bias can't i mean hmmm... what's the subject? they are, for example american people are better at written tests, whereas african people can't use pens. so they're better at tests using 3d models angrymob- the types of problems? how are they biased in the way you are saying. and as for language that is just the face of the test, not the test itself...I am sure chinese IQ tests are written in chinese superiority I_TheJury... not sure, it would depend on the subject, wouldn't it? hiya hiya and, freelance, if you took a chinese IQ test, you'd probably be judged an idiot It might. Do you think in principle it can be done, Cassandra? but how do you decide that one is sutible for one culture, but not another and, like, if you've never seen a problem like "find the number that fits this sequence best", you don't know how to deal with them so well how do you decide that this test acurately measures intelligence in one culture, but not the other angrymob- and I should hope so for taking a chinese IQ test and not one from my own nationality, which would be written in my own language if you've been exposed to that type of problem hundreds of times, you've learned ways to deal with it first of all i dont think IQ really work in our culture that has nothing to do with "intelligence", only learning iq tests are based on our ability to define intelligence, but there really is no way of doing this *** Cassandra changes topic to 'HUMANITY: Are some people superior to others?' the IQ test measures learning iq tests don't work in any culture if you want to equate learning with intelligence, fine... some pretend that these are one thing angrymob I_TheJury... I am not sure... in principle it sounds as if it could be done... but I'm just not sure....What do you think? i dont think exams work to well either what is intelligence? angrymob- an IQ test does not measure learning...its mostly mathematics, and maths, no matter how well learnt, is a natural ability "Intelligence - the ability to learn ..." websters dictionary eh? natural ability? hardly so you think children come out of the womb knowing how to do algebra? some are.. but its artificail superiority.. the one we humans create to detect different species.. I live in Texas, Cassandra. IQ tests are very practical: they serve to prove a condemned man is not too retarded to be executed. He said, ironically. but freelance iq tests have things like this jfmam... whats next if you are to define a test that measure an intelligence quotient, shouldn't you be able to answer that question? Intelligence at root is a survival instinct... the more intelligence, the more survival... that's bollocks sorry wrong word i meant rubbish Cassandra but then iq is onli 1/0? angrymob- I have met people who have been at the same level as me in learnedness, but were worse than me at maths...we go along at the same level at the same pace and I can pick it up easier than they can, to me that is natural ability and nothing to do with learning directly cassandra: that means the 8 ppl breeding in a mobile home are superior to me...their genes are more likely to survive than mine ;) I_TheJury.. hmmmmm? I would have difficulty with that ...and yet intelligence must be measurable... why 'must'? what do you mean, "same level as you in learnedness"? like, you had the same life experience? intelligence is just a title granted by others... bacteria, cochroaches, these things can survive a nuclear war, yet they certainly aren't intelligent like knighthood :) why are you certain ouque ? freelance i'm good at math but IQ tests and english i'm not so good at. so what tests intellegence? why must intelligence be measurable? if that's the definition - they are? FoxInSox... I said at root! Intelligence is a survival thing at its root value... one could claim that intelligence is the ability to understand, but how would you measure this Intelligence is the ability to describe something by an expression as small as possible <_DragonFl> see ya all alter--- bye cassandra: i think that's a poetic conceit. we consider ourselves smarter than bugs, but they are the dominant species on earth. ouque.. intellience is not nessarly that., no way - as you can't define what's more 'understood' than other i know angrymob- I made a word up, because I couldn't think of a proper one that has the same meaning... I have grown up with people and progressed further than they had in maths, in fact, I have outshined people when they had extra leasons on maths...they even learned more than I did, and I still had a superior ability towards maths than they did ouque.. how do you know cockroaches don't have intelligence.. they seem intelligent to me... as do viruses...:) ... eventually describe something incomplete, exemple : 1 3 5 7 ? ? ? It can be applied to our perceptions FoxInSox... I am not arguing against that at all...? bobbyconn- nothing tests intelligence acurately, imo if you want to call bugs smart, they are. that's my point. intelligence is an attribute that is granted by others. it's not something that exists other than in a vague perception. well, you go... but "comparable environments" do not suffice to demonstrate your point freelance how do you know that they'd put more 'effort' in learning maths than you, it count's not only the 'active' learning no concept does if you can tell me what imparts intelligence, and then show that this was not influenced by variances in your experience, that would demonstrate your point obviously FoxInSox.. we have enough difficulty describing human intelligence without assigning measurable values to insects, bacteria, etc but if we move to far along these lines then language brakes down, saying intelligence is anything i want it to be angrymob- what will? what else is there? learning comes from enviroment and if there enviroment had more maths sloshing around, so to say, than mine, and I am better at maths, logicaly I have a more natural ability towards maths than they do, not unless you have another explination you already said you feel cockroaches are intelligent cassandra. ouque.. how do you know cockroaches don't have intelligence.. they seem intelligent to me... as do viruses...:) sure, i have another explanation... it could be differences in language comprehension it could be differences in culture and your teacher's style it could be differences in what time you wake up in the morning and how sleepy each of you is when you sit in math class karaibrah- I know the same way I know how anyone puts effort... experience, basicaly. I can tell through obsivations and I know I am right, but that is an irrelevent story dwelling too much into my childhood FoxInSox.. yes, I said that... the words in context were "assigning measurable values to insects, bacteria, etc" freelance just think of the possibility that you become more interested in maths than they did, and therefore your brain unconsciouslly worked on the problems more than you'd noticed it could be whether their parents get along at home  Just joined? We're discussing topics arising from ----------------> HUMANITY: Are some people superior to others? Also, what is Intelligence? it could be interest, right it could be fatalism - they don't try because they feel they are lack your "natural ability" in maths the key to your statement is that you're ASSIGNING measurable values cassandra. you're just taking a title and conferring it. the measurable bit is secondary. it's just an example - it could be anything else angrymob- I am fairly sure our language comprehension was level, culture and teacher styles were the same, and as I have said, I know they had alot of effort go into it FoxInSox.. I'd like to make my own points today, if you don't mind... and a bit prosaic exmplanation - human dna seems to has significantly smaller amount of data than previously thought well, i'm glad you know all this, but that doesn't help me much oh i suppose i could let you make a couple in that case cassandra ;) and that means that much more of you traits are formed, not inherited *** Retrieving #philosophy info... FoxInSox... thanks! and lol in some fields tho, freelance also you haven't accounted for things like interest, approach, motivation karaibrah- I'll consider it, but they had more interest in maths, because most of my time I spent in a dream world. I hated maths around the time I speak of...I only learned to like it when I was just leaving secondary school * FoxInSox shares a chicken wing with cassandra :) Bacteria account for about 50% of the biomass on Earth, I read recently.... is their survival indicative of intelligence? what did you hate about math? freelance - yes, but there is no guarantee that the abilities used in solving a problem in maths weren't aquired somewhere else cassandra is their survival indicative of super intellegence angrymob- I hated maths, they really wanted to learn it. They had many approaches, with the extra learning, I had few, I was unmotivated, they weren't no single being is uniformly superior to another, i bet, but i betcha there are beings who have a lot of superior abilities to others. in other fields, or in other levels of your mind? how do you know they were motivated? they all expressed desires to become mathematicians? they were all reading paul erdos biographies in their spare times? I wonder how fossil mass compares with biomass. Maybe the dead are smarter than the living. they dressed like Wiley? bobbyconn.. I'm just wondering if we aren't just life support systems for bacteria and viruses... a sort of symbiotic relationship :) karaibrah- maybe so, but it would have had to been there all the time, and that is only a tiny exageration but in other perspective the trait 'having interest in maths' coud also be inherited - jacquesFr is jacques@195.154.47.88 * logweb.terrashare.com jacquesFr on #philosophy jacquesFr using Flanders.Be.Eu.Undernet.org Planet Internet, Vlaanderen jacquesFr has been idle 9mins 45secs, signed on Wed Apr 11 00:18:33 jacquesFr End of /WHOIS list. - angrymob- I know they are motivated because of what they said and how the acted about it. freelance i'm afraid we know too little for what underlies our mind to be sure yet which was what? and what were they motivated to do? understand the concepts, or get a good grade in math? what was their motivation? what does motivation have to do with intelligence. the smartest folks might be the ones sitting around enjoying their lives ;) nobody could know angrymob nor even they angrymob- well, seeing as we weren't graded so much, i would image it was a will to learn maths, in fact I am nearly certain of it well, right, but this is all relevant to determining whether we are measuring some magic "intelligence" or merely something they learned like, if they learned "I am bad at math, and no matter what i won't understand this math business" early on... are you guys discussing self-image models? karaibrah- maybe so, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a natural ability in maths and others do not we might be, but i've never heard the term *** Disconnected Session Start: Wed Apr 11 08:23:47 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Philosophy: it's THE net search for Wisdom …' *** Set by Cassandra on Wed Apr 11 03:20:23 its one or the other <|emit|> health to cure us from the aftermath of the jobs why not both?:) <|emit|> haha *** Disconnected -brussels.be.eu.undernet.org- *** Looking up your hostname -brussels.be.eu.undernet.org- *** Checking Ident -brussels.be.eu.undernet.org- *** Couldn't look up your hostname -brussels.be.eu.undernet.org- *** Got ident response -Flanders.Be.Eu.Undernet.org- Highest connection count: 9157 (9155 clients) -Flanders.Be.Eu.Undernet.org- on 1 ca 1(4) ft 10(10) *** Attempting to rejoin... *** Rejoined channel #philosophy *** Topic is 'Philosophy: it's THE net search for Wisdom …' *** Set by Cassandra on Wed Apr 11 03:20:23 i imagine is better. lol i magine you're right lol... I really killed the conversation. muderer!!!! lol lol Words are murderers of reality. lol *** Disconnected Session Start: Wed Apr 11 12:16:07 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Philosophy: it's THE net search for Wisdom …' *** Set by Cassandra on Wed Apr 11 03:20:23 yup, scop, about time is right. two become one and all that * Hanna- remembers:) what was the hold up? yes but WHY would you do that? calli: you're being unfair calli: were you never IN LOVE? i mean stuff the plane the people should have been released straight away no I am not *** Disconnected Session Start: Thu Apr 12 21:33:48 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy so why even phrase things in those contexts? Hello world how are you all? Thank God Reason came in.. society is based on emotional conversion to economics heterogeneous, Reason civilization is not society wb, blue. :) zanadu was not a society..it was a civilization thank you the nazca empire of the incans was not a society..it was a civilization the culture existed Angry - I phrase it so in hope that people can look past the use of an absolute and just agree with the fundamental statement, or refute the point as it is meant. but the society remains...mysterious So does the point of this topic. ;) So what is being discussed if your society is based on food consumption..or lack of it, and you become cannibals, your culture becomes cannablistic, and the society is focused on that symmantics, as ever Reason: Gene therapy. but is that a society?...no..it has no economic recourse amenra now we have food we are cannibals too huh humor? if you understand what i mean:) * Charis likes white meat.. cannibals in our behaviour to others can a society be responsible for its' conduct? is cannibalism complicate... I doubt it? maybe the cooking time societies are governed by groups of people through a structured system civilizations don't need a society to exist I like that amenra-fs is surprised when someone else makes no sense. amenra dont you think we knew that Crypt: lol i dunno...i'm stupid * CryptKey looks for arguments. ;) Is it human nature to draw attention away from the main point of a querry with an analysis of the querry? While the point of the statement is carried fully, it seems that its structure is more interesting than the point itself. most ppl just think that because you have a king or empireour you have a society though emperour..yah it has nothing to do with the structure of your point, you just weren't making a point I can't say that an empireour is something I've ever had. absolutes have no relevance in a discussion of the natures of societies well lets dig up a subject worth discussion and worthy of debate it's like bringing the bible into a discussion on the existence of god societies aren't natural..that's why they are man made yes. thank you. duh well how can something have nature or be called natural..when it isn't? i don't understand..it is a euphanism? so chimo societies are mand made? A statement to provoke thought is merely that. chimo? chimp chimps societies are chimp made What would be some things that would cause greater unity in any given society ? war what is unity? lack of civil discord? low homicide rate? nationalism is considered unity amenra-fs: Is chimp made a natural or un-natural thing ? chimps are natural..they are not man made angry - I refer you to www.dictionary.com I think, therefore you arent. * enkil^ is bored. marden! charis :) et al Is death a reward? if chimps developed communication naturally..then their society is naturally developed yes amenra-fs: Are humans un-natural ? humans are certainly unnatural beings they are riddled with bacteria way too much bacteria as if fighting diseases for many eons Whitman, that wasn't what i meant unnatural?? Reason - aside from being an eventuality.... I cannot say if it is a reward or not. i meant, on what dimension are you measuring unity? i mean, everyone can be unified in, say, style of dress but still kill each other amenra-fs: So you belive that chimps have less bacteria keepin them alive than we humans do ? or be unified on not killing each other, but not on who they want to marry Whitman well its a return to the natural condition oh very much so mammal... *** girgayak is now known as garageyik that 1% difference = bacteria natural = normal chimps carry some bacteria I don't understand this argument. Everything is natural.:) Everything came from the universe at some level. monkeys can carry AIDs for instance...but never have a problem with it man is not natural..god made man free... dying is a problem nothing else is free in this universe even man is natural, it is an inportant step in the evolution of nature Reason - How can you say that when we are unsure of what lies beyond the living perception of nature? amenra: and we can probably carry diseases that effect a monkey and not us. I'm not sure though. its the first time i hear i am not natural:) amenra-fs: Do you have any evidence to back it up (Un invented evidence) whitman i have been there i was dead for 12,000,000,000 years.... it wasnt bad * enkil^ is not natural. Reason - rock on my man. before life = death and the first experiments for the medicines are made on the animals. so we are both natural if our organisation reacts on the same way we reincarnate...we are free to bringing god into an argument is the easy way out. *grin* I don't mean that as an insult, I mean using god can explain everything and anything because god is supposedly all powerful and all knowing :) not sure if animals do death is the normal condition maybe some do (sorry i dont speak english fluently) Most of the people here don't. brb Reason - ok... prove it. Whitman no not even those who are english :-) amenra-fs: The hare krishna religion believes that plants are reincarnated. Reason - thankoyou for playing * enkil^ must leave now. Whitman my pleasure somebody said, to err is human ... to err is human... doesn't it end: to really screw things up you need a computer? i agree with that oehansen:) to evolve is human. the analogy of humanity being a virus is gaining ground on me every day. * oehansen thinks something must be wrong, people are starting to agree with him. * oehansen thinks they're probably just humoring him. I'm not in a very open to opinions mood right now. later all If it makes you feel any better, oehansen, I'll disagree with you ;) Charis: ah, finally someone with intelligence ;-) heh oehansen do you hint anything?:) oehan' i am not intelligent? Whitman: I couldn't but smile, when I heard the robo-fbi in matrix say that about the human race :-) humorman: yeah, that I'm stupid :-) Reason: only if you agree with me ;-) oehan oeh! oehansen: To determine stupidity, we first need a measurable definition. Mammal opposite of intelligence or demished intelligence Mammal: the measurable definition is me... if you want to sound smart, you laugh at me and disagree with everything I say... want to be popular, you call me a looney. If you start thinking I'm something beyond that, your going in the wrong direction :-) in a final conclusion everybody who thinks in a philosophic way has a dose of madness:) all humans have that maddness so, oehnansen dont be pessimistic * oehansen laughs oehansen: I think that if I called you a looney, then I would make an enemy of you, and that would not make me popular in your eyes. everyone is crazy if they think anyone cares amenra-fs: everyone cares about something. this is going nowhere Mammal: Making me an enemy doesn't count much... I'm just one single guy. Besides, having me as an enemy, would make you PC ... with a lot of friends :-) hello all *** Disconnected Session Close: Thu Apr 12 21:59:20 2001 Session Start: Fri Apr 13 21:03:58 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to Philosophy -Profanity is the last refuge of the inarticulate' *** Set by BonHomme on Fri Apr 13 10:12:30 fbc3: Naw, just US and Japan america reaction to being bombed would be different to japans, america would seek revenge or should i say "retribution" which is "justifiable" fbc3: Conflict between US and Japan was brewing since the 19th century. It was inevitable. Just like China and US conflict is inevitable now when was the last time any foreign army set foot on american soil? 1812? 1812 * Angolmois nods solemnly at angrymob. contived maybe, but in 1900 few understood how well japanese would absorb western technology china us conflict is inevitable, you think? * Angolmois nods solemnly at angrymob. unless you count some of the goings-on in Texas.. but, that's not quite .. economic conflict, not military how so? i mean, japan fits quite well into the Washington Consensus now... i'm sure they'll find a place the chinese can be happy with cafeteria: Yes, military conflict too Angolmois- I here attitudes are not good within the ranks of the EU towards the US either...personaly I think this is these are the first signs of the beginning of the end of the US' 'power' texans have still not absorbed western technology as well as most advanced people tis true the japanese were very silly in their warring stance but the action of bombing their civilians with something like atomic weapons is completely unacceptable *** CulchWork is now known as Culchie Angolmois- but then I am no authority on the matter:o) cafeteria: Both US and China are capitalist. And the highest stage of capitalism is imperialism well. There were foreigners attacking on american soil, as late as 1861. Southerners, at Gettysburg :) china is capitalist??? since it was an aborted secession, i dunno if that counts freelance: You may be right. US is slowly losing its allies. EU may indeed become a competitor to US power pretty soon It definately doesn't. angrymob, it was a secession in fact. That's why there was a war i s'pose angol -- the highest stage of capitalism is imperialism -- I think that's some sort of political slogan, I don;t believe it, but maybe polisci people say stuff like that If you want to look at it that way, then the "US" took an offensive against a soverign nation because they didn't like their policies. they chose a President... they (I should say "we") convoked a congress, designed a flag, even printed currency fbc3, why don't you believe it? fbc3: Imperialism is simply capitalism applied globally. Instead of corporations, you have nations-states struggling for control Angolmois- well it could already rival America, but I doubt they wish any kind of military compition with America...and I believe that the economy of the US isn't that much to contest with, what with all this resetion stuff... I live down the street from the White House of the Confederacy :) We should teach the Chinese about George Washington. angry because it sounds like dialectic derived from hegel or marx *** Disconnected Session Close: Fri Apr 13 21:09:33 2001 Session Start: Fri Apr 13 23:39:10 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy nope.. cambridge has living wages at $10.25 plus benefits needless to say, i get no benefits as a grad student except maybe job security gotta work off my indenture * Icon_clas just assumes everyone is better off than he is that's what you get for being self-employed yeah what's what you get for being self-employed being worse off than everyone else nobody knows the trouble I've seen well I'm self-employed and I know plenty of wage slaves worse off than me :) i work for a multinational corporation woop, when did janine arrive? cafe: yeah? what one? would that be SOdhexo-Marriot, cafeteria? barnes and noble nobody knows but jesus funky * Icon_clas is self-employed and likes not having a boss * dakur hi5s Icon my job is very easy hi5s? what is hi5ing? high-fives? what? I work for the government of australia icon: you know, when you slap hands like "yeah! dude! " I've just been a mostly silent observer - but am leaving now - watch out for tornados bearing acorns! :) or cows [wheel] JanineL, you a sanitation worker or a file clerk? Is curiosity the one human drive that should never be restricted? cows falling from the sky, now there's a mental image no I'm a computer systems person fastest animal in the world, that cow dropped from a helicopter hi Shalow hey *** myce_msg is now known as mycelium [jAm3s11:#philosophy FINGER] [smiTh713:#philosophy FINGER] [LuCkO17:#philosophy FINGER] [udI5mkFbC:#philosophy FINGER] [zaCtGkm3l:#philosophy FINGER] [Q2KE2XJQd:#philosophy FINGER] [T1xwScpFP:#philosophy FINGER] [U0VkRDafv:#philosophy FINGER] [O2vjrLVwg:#philosophy FINGER] [pr9cuPCmt:#philosophy FINGER] [vanQjsNeo:#philosophy FINGER] [th0EMduLv:#philosophy FINGER] [mfIGXkyib:#philosophy FINGER] [N1GPFb1AG:#philosophy FINGER] [SGleImhWx:#philosophy FINGER] [jrDxHqkmu:#philosophy FINGER] [PLyKfVii6:#philosophy FINGER] [QVNeOSn8Q:#philosophy FINGER] *** Disconnected * /join: not connected to server -eu.undernet.org- *** Looking up your hostname -eu.undernet.org- *** Checking Ident -eu.undernet.org- *** Couldn't look up your hostname -eu.undernet.org- *** Got ident response -Flanders.Be.Eu.Undernet.org- Highest connection count: 9258 (9256 clients) -Flanders.Be.Eu.Undernet.org- on 1 ca 1(4) ft 10(10) *** Attempting to rejoin... Session Close: Fri Apr 13 23:58:08 2001 Session Start: Sat Apr 14 10:01:23 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "Philosophers' Party. Yikes!" Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sat Apr 14 05:36:13 roxybabe is that what u have always believed or is it a conclusion? We're nothing different fromthe animals nonbeing would be like being unconscious forever no more scratcg grandest and oldest :-) I clinically died at 17 for 4 minutes h that's because we ARE animals Roxy no bright light for me roxybabe, to come to that conclusion you must realise you are set apart somewhat just nothing Boofuls are we? the point of life is endlessly passing on dna arent we superior? ;p thats a point of sorts roxy according to our current science, yes eshta :) and its quite fun to do too apop...what about our accumulated "essence"...who and what we are? do you think it dies? hehe i know :) yes calliope i do can you kill God,love,Zen,Truth,Reality,soul - all that crap now? wow apop Taf u cant kill god is reality alive? you can kill ur belief in god.. u can kill love..u cant kill reality bcz if u try to it kills u instead trash prayer and meditation for awhile and see what happens buti believe we should make the most out of our short lives. u can kill ur soul how can you kill an immortal soul? TafMor god just exists whether u like it or not.. ofcourse depends on ur belief TafMor, you are talking about meditation :) Ragtime^ u justdont believe in it.. roxy, how do you feel you could make the most out of your life? Ragtime^, you change it into a mouse and you eat it but then again its the same thing as dealing with god right.. humm im confusing myself :\ surely all of Totality is immortal or unable to end,escape,run away? TafMor hummm how cna u run away?? TafMor, what is the 'all' shhh why make a big deal of certain words,thoughts,images,objects? do you do that? * calliope` had this "universal experience" one....I really tripped out yes if these things are significant to me i would and found myself in this oddest state....like I intimately knew the heart soul and mind of every human being and that I was everywhere at once....and none of it made any difference...there was no pain, no joy....just this incredible pervading peace calliope` i believe thats called out of body experience.. toilet paper is significant to me yet i don't pray to it all the live long day LOL calliope` i envyyyyyyyyy you :))))))))))))) (kidding) calliope`, enlightenment or a bad pill :) sol roxy, how do you feel you could make the most out of your life? was actually a strange situation Boofuls how would u know that u made the most out of ur life i think u only come to that conclusion when ur near death,,if u fel that u r... calliope`, stephen fry recently said he would be surprised if he never had a strange experience of coincidence/strangeness...that in itself would be a strange experience well actually eshta, I was just trying to expand on something roxy was saying, since she's feeling very down about life right now I had gone through so my psychical studf that I was living in a nightmare....and all I wanted to do was stop living...I didnt want to die...I just didnt want to have to live....and I realised that I would have to give up my soul...who I was...my "I am".....but it had gotten to the stage where I realised that and the moment I accepted that....that experience is what happened Boofuls oh i see so much sp With much wisdom, comes much sorrow. * Boofuls smiles at eshta :) wow...excuse typos :) am a two fingered typist roxy, how do you feel you could make the most out of your life? more knowleege, more grief roxybabe do u like to read? famous scientist,guitarist,rapist,artist,etc. - it's all equally valid or frames that make up the whole show or movie calliope`, the edge, impressive :) yes why? roxybabe have you read "the power of your subconcious mind" by joseph murphy? nope calliope`, you coveted yourself? :) roxy, how do you feel you could make the most out of your life? check it out.. its worth it :) subconscious? in an instant what isn't conscious,present,all that there is? sol...no I gave up my life, and the thought of ever being me...was kind of a sacrifice weird stuff but an amazing experience calliope` im glad you enjoyed it calliope`, responsibility of being what you knew yourself as, how you had defined yourself and the self-imposed boundaries? often ppl go thru this experience..and cling to it and cant adjust to their daily lives again... and it just kind of fell on me in an instant....I seemed to have had nothing to do with it except the acceptance that being nothing was better than being me calliope`, it's very peaceful but i'm addicted to the game ;) its sad really.. i have seen someone who is absent minded after going thru this.. because as she claimed..she just left her soul somewhere else..and she cant seem to find it in this world calliope`, what is your nature? but made me realise also that oif that is what hapens when you forfeit ego....then there is more to us than me realise....I think the apt description was omnipotent the so-called 'subconscious' is a GIGO,a shadow,a mirror,an echo,a boomerang kinda thing sol...hmmm...these days I am a cynic and have no trust in the human race whatsoever:) then I was a religious devout calliope`, how do you feel about individuals? TafMor no ur subconcious is like a tape recorder roxy, is there any reason why you don't answer my question? boofuls: find satisfaction from what you have, from whatyou have worked for. people inn general? it basically does its best to apply every single thing you say,, whether it was posotive or negative,, calliope`, no; individuals :) it doesnt have a filter, like ur brain..where u can actually choose between right or wrong.. I have lost faith in human nature...I have seen so much that I just expect and accept the worst....and when it isnt that way I am pleasantly surprised....hehe eshta those tapes are really blank or ever fresh and untouched it just makes sure that whatever you say...to urself or outloud..is carried out TafMor no not really...i see this in my daily lifee. lets say... oh eaxh person I take on their own merit sol it's like a kid's magic tablet is that hat you meant? ok i have this problem with math.. i hate math do you feel you can do that so far roxy? If you were to die tomorrow, could you feel that satisfaction? If not, do you think you'd better get started in case you die tomorrow? eshta, but how is the subconcious written to, recorded onto? so my subconcious basically does its best to make sure that i "suck" in math oh easy...energy patterns in order to make me "hate" it more we create them the page is pulled and all the doodling disappears Sol^ into you they are what is left after well boofuls, i already have. constantly playing with building blocks:) not literally recorded..ohhh u guys know what i mean :x calliope`, are there not people you have know and appreciated, or have they always ended up letting you down, either by letting themselves or you personally down eshta, but when? so in case i die tomorrow or later when i get home, i can say that i have enjoyed my short useless life. that's good roxy :) yes of course sol calliope`, always? thanks. useless roxy? I thought you said you'd found some satisfaction in your contributions already both sol bit of both calliope`, nod roxybabe do u have any close friends u can talk to? when I was wrapped up in my own naive little world was better though...I thioght no-one really had ban intentions...they did things cause they were hurt etc.....I only had my own understanding of my own nature to go on.....but then I got out there in the world....boy did I cop a bruising calliope`, i don't want to go too off-topic here but i heard someone explaining that if they thought of themselves as a $300 hooker, that was how he was treated :) no innosence left now, I'm afraid i have a lot of friends... we have differnt views about life. i have my own. hehe sol...as apposed to $10 white trash? lol calliope`, no doors left to open, or maybe you're just clearing the field, no immediate peer group to compare notes and experiences with useless life roxy? I thought you said you'd found some satisfaction in your contributions already sorry this life,your life never started nor will it stop - i'm just guessing,intuiting,rattling some crap that sounds kinda neat to me or the puppet is being jerked around like that LOL ha ha pretty mucha recluse now sol have a public life and a private one calliope`, indeed very few people in my private one calliope` hummmm... two faced? lots of aquaintances and strangers in my public one TafMor thats what i had in mind.. <`D1GW33D`> double personality is the way I like it ok :-) hypocracy (however its spelled) roxy, why do you say your life is useless if you already feel satisfied about your contribution? *** `D1GW33D` is now known as D1GW33D calliope` how can u manage ? give unto to caesar.... calliope`, would the best thing to be able to live with the one face? nope why not I have a real public life media orientatel etc chameleon thats not me is what other want to believe calliope` are you a celebrity? my private life is me not really There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless. or is you a weather person or something got that somewhere the public face is something you have created/manipulated for a particular purpose? went through a year or two of being "sought after"...lol....but I still lecture internatinally and have a bit of media dealing and it's true if it's meaningless roxy, don't pay it any mind :) some of it sol I kinda got shoved there first then I learnt how to work it while in Rome don't stick out like a sore thumb Boofuls but what if you were a rightous person..and some schmuch who doesnt deserve squat has what u deserve roxy yes, that relates to bruckner's 6th symphony calliope`, do you use your private self to help organise the public one? shmuck i mean not really sol eshta, roxy said it was meaningless, so I am pointing out to her/him that if it's meaningless, then it's a waste of time to worry about it :) :( i cant adjust to this private/public lives to be honest with you save the big stand for really big matters LOL So I commend the enjoyment of life, because nothing is better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany him in his work all the days of the life God has given him under the sun. my private self is my escape from what the world expects of me calliope`, so it's a state of mind more than anything else? and very few people are allowed into it just those I love Boofuls im saying..what if you were the victim :\ got that again somewhere. it aint mine but i say it's true! could my private life exist only in my head? no sol....my public life has people all over me I dont even know pretending to be my intimate friend....is all bs calliope`, if it's not a state of mind or a character, what is it? my public life is the hilton and international travel....my private life is barefoot and trying to pay the bills:) who here hasn't been raped,crushed,etc.? even coming out of the womb gets a bit intense TafMor i dont remember that far.. good! :-) the only think i know is that i was overweight and i gave my mother a hard time think=thing Judge yourself not by the actions done to/against you, judge yourself by your reaction to those situations. boo I have a lot of respect fot anything like roxy, brians eno and ferry and bruckner's symphony #6 eshta, yeah i was a big ass baby :) everyone here searches for the meaning of life.... Sol^ i was 4 kilos..DAMN :( but you know even if you are the smartest fbc3, tell me that again? Take the whisky out of your hand first though *grin* eshta, what's that in ounces? :) roxybabe ummm instead of serching for the meaning of life..why not focus on the things that give u a sense of accomplishment and claim to understand what life is really all about Sol^ ummm u mean pounds? eshta, okie umm you will never comprehend it yes think be thing or the subject and object mutually arise or the thought,the word is the object 4 x 2.45 = ? pounds i mean x 2.54 * calliope` was bord 10lb 11oz...I pittied my mother:) my largest was only 7lb eshta i think the same. humm noone can comprehend what goes on under the sun the puzzle is uncut,unpieced until a thinker scissors,times,measures,divides,cuts,pedestals,etc. you know the current buzz doing the rounds is that big babies are slightly more successful in life, have higher iq's and all that nonsense:) eshta...isnt it 2.2lb to the kilo? calliope` i dont know :\ yeah, I heard that too Sol heheheh i am not sure really... lol sol hehe where did you hear that one? * eshta was a big baby All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, [1] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. couple of months ago in new scientist then media caught on a few weeks later wow thats strage lool as my smallest baby is definately the most intelligent of the lot the cunning one :) she also grew up to be gigger than me and she is only 14....she i scary;)) bigger sp loool Sol, they have to justify the money they're throwing down the drain. Mindless studies like this are just one way of doing so :) Otherwise, they'd have to sink money into Aids research, and NO one wants that ! *evilgrin* the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. a world-view isn't a vast view - it's a few bits and pieces,a few ashes...it's old as soon as it's new Boofuls, yep, give it 10 years and big babies will be inefficient and wasteful of resources, no more big babies! roxy how would u know?? your not dead yet :) rofl Sol, YUHP I thought 1 pound was pi grams. that makes 2.2 pounds about about arcsin(log base 6(.087)) kilos roxy....the nag hammadi says...."the dead are not alive and the living will not die....in the day theat you were one, you became two...when you become two...what will you do?" hehe noow figure that out:P Roxy, do you feel life is hard for you right now? how would you know too that something awaits us after death calliope` i didnt get it :\ eshta thats cause it i gnostic you may not get it for years roxybabe if you follow a religion.. i think u would normally have an idea bout what to expect in the afterlife calliope` should i bother? but when you do...it will be with profound relevation...I love the gnosis:) form is formless roxybabe, i doubt anything awaits me least of all something for my soul; there's lots to do in the meantime however:) umm only if you want to explore yrself eshta:) Zen is worthless was a tease in the context I used it:) calliope` oh id love to.. but i meditate in order to do that though calliope, have you heard of a church that's funded and run by a person named Sylvia Browne? hehe Tao is easier Zen no boofuls what sort of church? spiritualist or something? TafMor are u searching for what is easier?? or for something profound? TafMor, yes, tao and the art of nonbeing :) lol sol but nonbeing while you are being aint so easy;)) * calliope` chuckles which asserts the master of non-being will never mention it oh right I see, tao is the art of nonbeing but not zen *sigh* :) They use the gnosis in their beliefs. It's a church that doesn't ask you to leave your religion behind to join theirs. It's more of a common understanding and teaching and learning of each individual, questioning. I'm not sure how valid it is, but the woman freaks me out as a Psychic. She's pretty scary actually... but it could all be a tv trick. calliope the profound is at the same level as the profane - those pros are no biggie LOL csounds interesting booful\is the way I believe things should be Maslow was neither hi nor lo the greatest master or teacher is the one who allows other to experience and explore for themseleves and learn upon their own path i dont have a religion right now... but i believe in one creator of all things on earth... the giver of our meaningless lives. the pathless path roxybabe, why; someone to blame? nah...the individual path:) that helps me expperience being myself and not some other person brb pls calliope: http://www.sylvia.org/home/index.cfm?CFID=116420&CFTOKEN=50993172 i have come to the one conclusion and that is to enjoy what i have, roxybabe, why not go and have what you enjoy say anything,say nothing - the many Lao Tzes rattled a bit and we got a little book while my body allows me to calliope: click on Novus Spiritus in the left hand side are u telling me to go and leave this room, because we dont have the same opinion... lao tzu helps me seize control of the local power structure roxybabe, why only experience what you have, perhaps you see something you might like...go and try it boofuls I cant am on a macintosh program...ircle not the same as yrs:) roxybabe, can you still create? ohhhhhhhhh so you can't read some websites then calliope? roxy, if you wish to find a reason for life and you want someone else's reason, how about this: I can rewad all as long as I have the url and open netscape as well:) Knowledge vs Experience God is pure love and intellect, which means He knows everything there is to know. Yet pure knowledge without experience is empty and incomplete. oops, that didn't come out well just cant click and open like some of you guys can:) yes, that's exactly my point sol. jesus,lao tze,joe smith! i didn't learn zip from these invisible men! LOL ohhhhh nono calliope, I just wanted you to input the addy whether you cut and pasted it or typed it out. I can't just click on it and get it either (from irc) good night everyone experience life roxybabe, consider leaving what you have defined yourself as and go out with nothing..a holiday in other words, at least a couple of months and go alone with no little trinkets or other anchors if you type this out in your netscape addy window calliope, you can get to it then. http://www.sylvia.org/home/aboutnovus.cfm as it will end in a short time. can you not experience life? a day without Stuff Sol? What would George Carlin say about that? ;) ok boofuls...have saved the url...will look a bit later when I dont have so many programs open:) sol...no money? Boofuls, i don't know, what would he say and why would he say that? :) heheh s'okay calliope, don't feel obligated, but if you like, that's the website :) I don't belong to the church so I'm not trying to get members for her or anything :) I just found it interesting that you brought up the word "gnostic" and that's where I've seen it before why get all goofy over gold and ignore gravel? i like my long driveway of crushed rock :-) calliope`, break from the routine, change of environment and influences, triggers that set you back into routine I guess you're not familiar with George Carlin (the comedian)'s take on our "stuff" and how much we need it Sol :) It was one of his best monologues I think :) oh I do that about twice a year when I reavel overseas sol hi Tafmor, I like that Boofuls, i will try a little search :) but I take my doedorant and shampoo;)) travel sp hehe Sol, yeah, it's probably on some napsterlike site actually :) calliope`, not enough to last you, so you have to buy more, and not the same brand :) gravel is useful slingshot stuff,unlike gold nuggets :-) yes sol exactly seen strider2? yeah Taf, I rather agree. Gravel packs that much more of a punch, Gold can be too soft sometimes :) uun, try it like this (I think this might work) !seen strider2 what is truth? truth of what? let's focus on one little truth for a few minutes !seen strider2 dosnt work in here or perhaps there isn't a program in here for that and no he hasnt been opn yet tonight tell me a truth or tell the truth ah well, there ya go :) he gets up later on satturday mornings Roxy, do you have any children? truth? that word is like the word God * roxybabe is 21 years old, single. or like the word love TafMor :) * calliope` smiles liove is tangible:) yes luv or love :-) love sp okay thanks Roxy someone get me a can of love, please like soul,samadhi,nirvana,satori,etc. lol Sol, everyone knows that love comes in environmentally safe aerosol cans... or at the end of your channel changer buttons :) it is a crazy game! LOL Is sarcasm one of the 7 deadly sins? LOL :) sarmadhi Boofuls, where, i want it *now* why can't i have some right *now*, this love stuff sucks :) does love exist? Sol, love is like a butterfly.... you must pin it down and keep it there :) does putting your butt on the line for another exist? exist TafMor? It happens. yes it happens - why? usually the exception rather than the rule though Tafmor, no matter how much lipservice it gets :) rip its wings off huh booful? * calliope` laughs lol calliope, you got it :) i can say a bunch of words yet i don't know why then glue them together of course :) What makes you think it is an exception Boofuls? am i you? are we all us or one or undivided or 'that'? calliope`, isn't that stephen king's patented "Misery" method? :) hiya BigHead :) Just my perspective I guess. Not surrounded by too much of it (in action I mean... it gets lots of lipservice though) Taf....is getting old:) lol sol:) Look at your firemen Boofuls * Boofuls apologizes and asks that the channel please excuse her... just got an important email from Mamma that must be dealt with asap I try to, as much as I can BigHead :) oh didnt see you there bon...evening:) Your rescue crews bbs hi calli am i old? am i young? who has the measuring stick for this matter? :) no yr line of chat is getting old:) ok - i agree :-) lol age --->state of mind yeah you say that when you get wrinkles and lovehandles young roxy:) TafMor, everything is relative? what do you call age discrimination.. is it ageism? i dunno. i am not in as good of shape as when i was 25 yet i could kick that young dude's butt if i had a time machine and could go back as i am now LOL age dicrimination? lol yes, what's the term I think thats the tem:) term sp it's ageism, yes and santa clause and especially the tooth fairy should be on trial for it;)) ok, i just needed a confirmation. ageism? are you for real? come on everything is related or hangin' out real close together and stuff :-) right, sol ? yes take any word and add 9ism to it? ism sp racism, ageism, iq-ism? lol Satan and God are twins - one has a few pimples LOL ageism is real, we get taught about in school, here in the uk : :) they use the word in the papers and everything is a weir word is it in the oxford dictionary then? weird sp I bet not god or the creator is we ckeep making up new words to fit our new political correctnes i should think so, this was some 5/6 years ago i was learning about it:) some refer to the oxchevy im scared of getting old. somewhere or somehow there is an understanding of thee universe I'd be more scared of being young again:) tha t is www.dictionary.com accepts "ageism" calli another way to say the same thing -- we keep inventing euphemisms to cover up old shames but no haman has it basilius:) no understanding but many neat toys come out of trying to understand :-) human sp scared to lose my perfect health and never do the same things call you speak for all man? but i like old people, they're smart and full of wisdom. we think....the super geniuses think....that's about it..... basilius...yes:P *** Disconnected Session Start: Sat Apr 14 12:17:31 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "Philosophers' Party. Yikes!" Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sat Apr 14 05:34:29 he pulls the wings off of birds GoodMan... academia lol docd: don't bother all hells are illusory dude! you know you swat the buddah [sic] off your path man and like coast to nirvanna on a mix of curt kobain and frijtof de capra he fails to worships the gods no matter how false and absurd they may be lol, broouwer imagine being called chiphead of goat the therapist that really can't handle a little discomfort can't begin to help,to guide,to heal me! the sucker might have 3 PhDs but may as well have a pencil sharpener trophy! LOL docd: don't tell them about my secret altar to trotsky who's a doctor here? stand aside coming throught give him air people can i get a line in here? does anyone have a defribrilator? it's scary... i dont know what to think anymore. in today's world many can be masters,be great without really being so LOL they have not yet achieved the essential emptyness to understand the dharmas of trotsky dood trotsky is like so full of emptyness this is very bad behaviour haha we are all ever empty and full and definitely a la rainman in contravention of channel guidelines up is down black is white yes freedom is slavery biscuits is gravy five equals seven hehe jack is jill we're defintely supposed to discuss philosophy [wheel] Here in the Philosophy channel, we can communicate ideas without knowing race, or age, or where another lives. What is important, in the context of human interaction, for us to KNOW about others? isko21: what's scary? i am i am not. scary to be a fool. we need to know at what conscious level they are operating indeed it is bad behavior- i suspect you didn't say you koans today the thing about interaction is that we have a feedback mechanism to keep us on an even keel about our interlocutors we can check if they understand us I think I need faces and voices, actually. It's so hard to pin an opinion on a name. who said that? why arc? can we know? i suppose we can know to the degree that we know our own mess,our own wanderings,dealings,games,etc.....we know about how it is in this civilization,about human behavior to a greater or lesser degree do you take pilgramages to mexico city to where leon died for our sins? LOL well, everytime I come in here, I struggle to remember. Was docd the guy who knew about physics? Was the interesting conversation about buddhism with zes? i have heard about freud's views and i dont know how he looks like orwhere he's from, actually. docd: im not much into corps worship or reverance I'm not very good with names, and unfortunately names is all we've got here. the old man was just about the nicest of the bolsheviks but dead is dea d man was a fool who leon? yep you may be able to trick me,con me - in truth i conned myself or was easy enough pickin's well he was surprisingly naive on a personal level not me, arc- I am never interesting yes the sign of a fool but...he was astonishingly brilliant at war which is really surprising given that his history i am a fool myself! didn't you turn up on a linux channel at one point, docd? not to my knowlege, arc i was supposed to go an hour and a half ago. this channel is so addicting! *** isko21 is now known as roxybabe has this peculiar effect of ideas floating around without context... sorcerers and sorceresses - simple to complex conjurers,convincers,magicians,politicians,etc. apples figs pears, persimmons LOL king and queen of the hill - we see it in insects,mice,etc. although, of course, with the way the conversation is going at the moment, I don't think that really matters much... ok look Now if you take Stalin Brouwer, there was something still after all my visits to this channel * Brouwer suddenly distracted by BH's outrage haha stalin was definitely something yes he managed to kill more communists than Hitler and he survivee survived that is an accomplishment Stalin rather proves that there is indeed such a thing as a bad boy really? are we including the Eastern Front here? I think he was a visionary arc: well, more members of the party is what the statistic refers to and yes, he did *** redrodger is now known as uroboros yes, he had a rather nightmarish vision nightmares.hhmmmmm mind you he also recruited more communists than anyone - he had rather odd standards for party membership did Bertrand Russell,Neitzsche,Buddha,Jung,Sartre,etc. really help you? did they enlighten you? did they clutter and complicate you? Stalin had one steadfast rule, never forget and never forgive all of them gangraped my mind! all of them at once TafMore? LOL just another of those fun loving mass murderers of the 20th century time to go to bed. Be seeing you.. good advice for anyone, bon arc wise of thee :-) bye the wee took him 20 years to get trotsky , but he got him Stalin was generally not available for critical review by his peers buh bye! i have no hole like the fox...no nest like the bird....no God...no new advanced yoga...it's sooooooo empty,soooooo vast....nothing.... BH: but stalinism got it in the end...there's still trotskyists but Kasama aside one rarely meets a stalinist these days empty like Julia Roberts I think the way he got trotsky actually sums up Stalin quite well LOL yes like Julia but the trotskyites accomplished nothing Brouwer but not as vast as Morrison Stalin on the other hand BH: i bet you to add "yet" haha gnite and anyway we have achieved something intellectually, we kept a tradition alive, we are the last defenders of humanism ;) Van? Jim? Phillip? greetings children of Philo and Sophia oh that's Morris (sorry) humanism can only exist if we choose to deliver the human in the inhuman that's Grant TafMor ;-) LOL ok There simply was no one of Stalins stature to take his place BH: that's true but in a wierd way a good thing no one as slick and cold-blooded? its actually quite hard to pinpoint what exactly inhuman is yes we didn't need another despotic individual well tony blair cuts a fine figure. bon now tony blair is really scary calli astonishingly right wing Tal Beria was as cold blooded, but he did not have what Stalin had we don't point, we a desperate enemy of freedom tony blair is the child of baalzebub! why is cold-blooded bad? wrong? or is it? Thought Blair was a leftist liberal sired on the devil by jack straw lol cold-blooded as a reptile in heat LOL lol a leftist liberal? rolling down the infernal hay! I'll trade you heads of state, brouwer good lord yes Brouwer docd: bush for blair i have two margaret thatchers... hobson's choice Is he a Tory? we are bad but we won't admit it :-) for the head of a reagan BH: if you look at his policy agenda there really is nothing left and even less liberal about it Bush, blair. these indeed are times that try the very souls of men we have an even more authoritarian government than under thatcher and more dangerous I thought he was the head of the leftist party? *** Disconnected -62.250.14.6- *** Looking up your hostname -62.250.14.6- *** Checking Ident -62.250.14.6- *** Couldn't look up your hostname -62.250.14.6- *** Got ident response -Haarlem.NL.EU.UnderNet.Org- Highest connection count: 3951 (3950 clients) -Haarlem.NL.EU.UnderNet.Org- on 1 ca 1(4) ft 10(10) *** Attempting to rejoin... *** Rejoined channel #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "Philosophers' Party. Yikes!" Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sat Apr 14 05:34:29 *** BonHomme sets mode: -b *!*@*.ipt.aol.com the cup is cracked and it all seeps down low out of side....i have no JB Weld to seal it thx bh ok Oh over here they still sell the illusions Brouwer i have some tape TafMor... some epoxy LOL and still have the sheep following *** Disconnected Session Start: Sat Apr 14 20:19:11 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy Arsov: that seems to be pretty the same story... So i have to ask if there is something new?..;=) who assumed it was a voice analyzer tiger haha :) i think asimov is turning in his grave because of you said i had something same with him :) tiger - well... Arsov: Hmmm...at least he has something to do than in his after-life.. tiger, thanks anyway :) Arsov: but the question witht he voice analyser is quit interesting, but in fact no solvable, as this is always the case when a subject has to say something about, including itself...just like-->[ X=X+1...what is X..] or something like that... everything i say is a lie...again..;) the squared brackets were a nice touch tiger tiger: the analyzer may be "broken" really....aren´t they anymore [this would not be nice, as i really like to use them sometimes] x=infinity hi Lopsie hey cosmic tiger- if the device is ok, then the salesman is misinformed that it is not, and he lies that it is ok Arsov: Hmmm...but would it be possible that such a thing is broken, is it possible to determine, with any "science", if a person is lying or not...just look at the actors, they are trained to lie, maybe no analyser would be able to tell if they do or do not...look at a writer, what else does he do then "lie" while writting a story...when you really believe what you are saying, you will not lie and the tester will not find out...no? Was Moses a Egyptian? Lopsie: as far as i am informed, he was raised the egyptian way---yes---but i guess he was not by "nature"... tiger- true, the voice analyzer analyzes the stress in the voice, so if teh person belives in the own words, than teh analyzer will say that s/he is not lieing Moses was a jew adopted by an egyptian pharaoh's wife arsov: that is the point, i guess that you only may be able to see if a person is lying or not when you have a look at the consequences of his/her words... Just yesterday I read that the origin of the word 'hebrew' is Egyptian, and the word 'habiru' from which hebrew is derived meant something like 'menial worker' or 'lumpenproletariat' in ancient Egyptian It'd be interesting if the people who left Egypt with Moses were in fact Egyptians, who later converted certain Semitic tribes in the Middle East to monotheism Lopsie: well...they where something like slaves there..yes Arsov: and , considering the question of the lie...did you ever try to be honest all the time...without any consens...? Lopsie: Hmmm..that i do not know....but i guess that Abraham was not considered being an egyptian, or was he??? Abraham could be a mythical figure :) Arsov: well, simply strictly honest? tiger: i am honest all the time :) tiger - i already told you.. i feel no need to lie Arsov: so i guess you are silent most of the time, yes?..;) But with the Bible making such a strong point that monotheism originated in Egypt, and spreading to the MIddle East from there... tiger hahaha tiger - no... i speak... when tehre is someone to speak with arsov: me neither, but when a 5 year old child asks you with a glittering eyes, if the Santa Claus exists, will you say NO, to him/her, or just say yes in order to keep the child happy? (My english is very good on a Saturday night..) hello hello is there a topic ? re nai rainbow:well..yes.;) tiger- i'd say yes! * raindown dares to ask what might the topic be then arsov: But, isnt´t that a lie then, as you know all to well that he does not exist, do you? raindown: How dary you ask that?..;) dare..sorry i know i know ...shameful ! tiger- yes, it is a lie! raindowm: hmmm,,moment,..A voice stress analyzer (lie detector) from Truster Technology costs about $50. What if when you ask their salesman whether the device works; he says yes and the device says he's lying? hmmm a paradox Arsov: so you lie when you think that it is better for the other one...just like you never would say to a really fat woman that she is, even if it is obvious, you would rather say "Oh, you do look good", even when you do not believe it, that is a lie too, no? the device couldn't be wrong and the salesman right raiondown: You are a genuis..;) i knew it..;) so the device is right hehe i am one tis true so the device is right raindowm:ah, yes....the device is right because the salesman is wrong saying that the device is right...etc.... and it doesnt work ! tiger - well, sometimes a lie is less worse than teh truth, because teh person knows teh truth, but if it is told, it makes the given person feel bad I can imagine... Arsov: so, you surely do not always tell the truth, and you would not even dare to try as you know all to well that it is not good for the other one...right? *** LSszleep is now known as LSzilard dare i speak once more and disagree ? the truth is the right thing to do in the longrun imo true :) raindown :)) raindowm: but isnt´t it an ultimate truth that one schould try not to hurt people? raindown - truth is a cathegory... it always IS unchangable :) no not to hurt ppl isnt the goal ..in the long run you are doing a favour to them the truth hurts but its the only way hmm arsov - is the truth unchangable ? raindowm: Hmmm..i see...not that bad as an idea...when you are honest to people you may make them change towards the "better", or you will not have many friends to talk too, and so too everything will have changed for the better, (if you like to be alone...) *** X sets mode: +o Muzeene hi all honesty is the best polic-y raindown: philosophy says so :) no why should you want to be around ppl who are lying ? lo everyone true friendship should be based on honesty see ? arsov gets it :) marsby: yes...but honesty with the right amount of humanity...! raindown: i aree that friendship shouldbe based on honesty, and respect!! raindown: Hmmm..i guess that we talk about 2 different kinds of lies...the one that is made to get some advantage (misinformation) and the one that is made in order not to hurt people or to make them feel well.... true friendship shoulb be based on honesty; good frienship shoulb be based on identity of interests Overman: SO what we all need is a true good friend..! tiger :) yes, agreed white lies are still misinformation - and they do erode the validity of your statements in the longrun again imo Overman: Hmmm..and if this friend would be of the opposite gender...what a dream come true..;) tiger hehe, you just hit on me with a sledge hammer raindown: Hmmm..i did not know the expression of "white lies"...thanks...and maybe you are right [in some way, i really believe you], but on the other hand, i am not the guy to go around and tell other people how they do look like...etc.... do what i do - offer your opinion to those who ask you - Overman: Hmmm..what shall i say there...shake it?..;) not to everyone You can look the new reference about tvad commercial at raindown: that i do anyway...if you really ask me, i will give you a real [diplomatic] answer..;) i skip the diplomacy myself but then again maybe i shouldnt * Arsov knows that if 2 people respect selves, trust is among them, then they are speaking truths * raindown advocates in favour of the truth but isnt sure on what truth is ... raindown: i do not know exactly, sometimes it would be better not to skip it, and sometimes it would, really depends on the character who is next to you in that particular case, some may stand the truth "unplugged" while others may break down then... tiger :-) hey it was nice chatting but i got to go thanx for the chat raindown: all i know is that word changes, but truth always stays the same....;) raindown: bye hmm does it ? bye raindown: true is when you do not lie about the certain fact Arsov: yes..truth is the absence of lie and lie is the absence of truth, and we are somewhere in-between..;) * Overman` is allergic to <> Overman: I am allergic to allergies...lol :)) it depends what truth you are referring to tiger; for instance Heidegger's aletheic truth has a different meaning tiger lol Arsov: But wouldn´t that, in the end, be a truth again? Overman: Hmmm..i have to admit that i am in no way familiar with Heidegger yet....only know some little "anecdotes" about him, but couldn´t manage to read his ideas...! tiger: well... true; tiger- his is a very difficult (and sometimes borring) to read :)) Overman: so, i guess, you have to help me over the clip a little and tell me briefly what he meant....(as far as you could interpret it....naturally) Overman: I am currently "bashing myself trough Wittgenstein", so do not tell me..;) Arsov: as a child, did you like to go on a..erm..."carusell"..? tiger :-) hmmm Wittgenstein , what can i say!!! tiger - i don't know what that is Arsov: erm...horses, cars and so on turning around..for children to sit on...erm....? Overman: strange, i had the same question in mind..;) and still have..;) Arsov: found in places where rollercoasters are too... tiger - wittgenstein? tiger - i'm reading his tractatus - and it's has so much unclear terms that i got dissapointed <--- interested in The Philosophy of War tiger- aletheic truth implies that truth is there, it is concealed, and one needs to find the necesary tools for the unconcealment Arsov: Unclear words...yes...not to mention the W-F-W-, i had that in school, and even there i hated it although it fascinates me on the other hand... Overman: Hmmm..just like the idea that we do not "invent" something, but we only "find out" what has always been there...? of course Heiddegger reffered to an everchanging being as truth; that is, he did not held that truth are of the Platonic nature tiger - wittgenstein is so famous not because of his ideas.. but because Rusell got impressed of wittgenstein ... without any basis tiger yes, true Arsov: maybe he liked him...;) arsov- perhaps its the name!! overman :))) :)) Russell is my favourite wrinkle tiger: well... Arsov: but then again, i like the idea of "what cannot be spoke ofm schould not be spoken of"..;) but anyway, i have to go, c ya all sounds like PC tiger - hahahaha good luck tiger To u too...Overman..;) bye tiger: yes... that may be the only sentence that is consistent with the terms used in it by the Witt-Stein Arsov: well..anyway, i am not finshed with it yet...(and will never really be).... Arsov: the world is all which is the case/fact? :=) tiger- i didn't say that that sentence had any meaning, though it does to some politicians Arsov: oh, i am, sometimes, able to read between the lines, you know..;) tiger - is the thought a case/fact? Arsov: well..it seems to be a reflection of reality, and then, i guess according to Kant, some "facts" can be mixed in the thougt (a human with the hat of a rat...etc) hat=head...sorry....(english surely is a fact....of language) anyway thougt=thought.... * Tiger--- schould write slower..;) :) Reason: well..the last politician i saw on tv was happy that he got a "ticket for an aeroplane"..;) * Arsov agrees with tiger... the true tiger! :) Arsov: Oh, yes, i like you 2 already.;) haha] <--- interested in The Philosophy of War * Arsov noticed those sparkling eyes and that blushing face :)) reason - place a topic...! intelligence what is it an entirely conditioned phenomenon reason: ability to see erm..."webbings"...erm.."combinaisons"...! 'conditioned' means nothing yes it does it means learned imitated, culturally imbibed intelligence in NOT learned reason: well...for Pawlow´s dog, the bell rang..;) of course it is that was response not intelligence bodingo: I guess that intelligence is not learned, but how to use it, is.... bodingo, the ability to learn *anything* is an aspect of intelligence you cant teachsomeone how to be intelligent intelligence what is it? biological capacities can lie latent without conditioning; intelligence only really becomes recognizable when stimulated bodingo, therefore someone who is better at learning intelligence, as you say, must therefore be pretty intelligent in the first place reason: the ability not to use repetition all the time...!..:/ bodingo its bad to defend a mistake tiger: that's a learned value, my point exactly intelligence is not learned hey.. Reason: Hmmm...is that the philosophy of war? (what you are currently showing us?) let's not confuse intelligence with the biological capacity of a brain to function Tiger wars are won with intelligence and in WWII departments had intelligence rationed because of its short supply bodingo, so why when if i have a baby after 20 years it can do things my little ape can never? i would define it as: broad knowledge, the capacity to empirically reason, and the capacity for sustained creativity; wait, perhaps the definition of genius; no mater matter bodingo I carry no such confussion Bodingo: Oh.,.,well..yes..how to use your intelligence may be learned, but intelligence as such seems to be fixed just like the lenght of your legs.....(you may have legs, but if no one would have schown you how to walk, wouldn´t you still be crawling?) because apes have more rudimentary brain structure; less biological capacity can we define intelliegence.... few can ? :) bodingo, so things with smaller brains are less clever always? Nature rations intelligence... just enough for survival... intelligence is expensive in upkeep no, things with less conditionable capacity and more instinct are less clever Reason: how to ration intelligence? as intelligence increases emottion and instinct decrease bodingo, but why can humans train their instinct? bodingo, most people i know afte the age of 30 tend to live by instinct... Tiger the same way it does the length of our fingers sol: because humans don't have instincts bodingo, a mother with a new baby has no instinct for her child? bodingo, the child has no instinct to cry when it wants something? we have strong conditioned impulses we misdiagnose as instinct; a major failure of our psychologists REASON:? sol: of course not; in certain cultures, children are killed out of compassion sol I see no human as intelligent just more intelligent than the chimp bodingo, i see, and the mother has no feelings about this whatsoever, not even a case of reason riding over instinct Reason: that is hard...but nice bodingo, ever heard the phrase, " A face only a mother could love" Sol: lol sol: I dont think it's plausible to make the case that we all share certain common emotions anymore; what commonalities there are can be attributed to culture Tiger if we are the tallest creature on earth we could say we are tall when we may not be... be are the most intelligent creature on earth but are we intelligent bodingo, don't you think we have some instinct when it comes to food, when it comes to being uncomfortable (exposed to excess heat/cold) Reason: i see your point..yes.... Intelligence is the abilty to simplify the complex. Its the abiltity to find a fundamental and key question is the midst of a complex problem and to then find and indentify available information to come up with the BEST solution or action i see little intelligence on Earth bodingo, is the tendecy to not wanting to die a learned trait? Reason:Open your eyes..;) I have and I get smoke in them Reason: Okay, close them..;) by instinct, I mean complex behavioral actions; like a cockroach scurrying out of the light or salmon swimming upstream to mate; not of courseour responses to heat, cold, etc anyway, have to go..see you.:;) i see war, hunger, polution i see few solutions or intelligent attitudes bodingo, so when you are exposed to pain, there is no instinct that will jerk your body away from such pain? reason: a learned value; learned with time; youngsters, esp. prococious ones, tend to overcomplexify things simply because they're encouraged not to be "simple"minded whats the point you are making sol: not wanting to die/wanting to die are learned traits; contrast the standard person to your standard ww2 kamikaze whats the point you are making sol: i dont dispute spinal reflexes; I just dont think they should be under the rubric of instinct bodingo, and contrast the ratio instict is the enemy of intelligence some people think will to saty alive is instinctive, I'm not sure the very possibility of the conditioning in the first place suggests there is no instinct bodingo, the kamikaze were a defined group of people with a specific goal...not just some people who decided to stop eating one day or didn't care if they fell off a cliff emmotion is the enemy of intelligence bodingo, they were willing to exchnage their life for a particular intellectual goal...in day to day life the instinct not to die is fairly obvious in us all reason now I don't think that -- if we have instincts some of them might be good. I agree we should use reason to sort out which of our instincts are good and which to suppress yes, emotion is the enemy of intelligence; intelligence should be objective, calm, methodical, ruthless and undeterred in the implementation of its chosen values instinct is the circuits of reactive behaviour set up during development in the primitive brain regions, as such not consciously learned I think sex and hunger urges are instinctive, but I agree they can be troublesome if not controlled by reason sol: we organize our lives in a way that sustains life because we usually dont have the imagination or guts to do anything else4 I dont feel I think and analyze bodingo, because there is an instinctual imperative at work bodingo, most people are happy to contribute what they can to society sol: it may feel like that; but it's really just longterm conditioning that has habitualized into seemingly autonomous emotion bodingo, nonsense, otherwise the number of children getting into adulthood would be minascule our culture champions practicality, the euphemism for life extending values [wheel] bodingo, children don't like pain, however they learn to express this dislike, it is the instinctual dislike that exists first Should governments legislate equal outcomes or should legislation be limited to providing equal opportunity? another either-or question pain is a palpable real unpleasant phenomenon; no debate tehre there bodingo, unpleasant; there you agree of our instinctual reaction to it that question is worded in a way I don't care to comprehend ? * Arsov notices that you people aren't going to church tonight!.. teh christians,a t least wat does church have to do with anything? I have a church next to my house and its bells are tolling right now this is a philosophy chennal well, masochists attach pleasure to pain; but the actual sensation of pain is immutable tolling? somebody died? christ did :P bodingo, really; and how many masochists under the age of 5 do you know NaHaliel affirmative how many conscious thinking people under 5 are there; the development of personality requires time; the capacity for it is at birth bodingo, subconciouss development happens, we change ourselves and our environment changes us, when we are born however, there are instinctual imperatives that help us survive yes, we feel deeply because we are feeling for the first time, our sensations are unmoderated by experience bodingo, and? bodingo, the fact that 95% of all new borns have the same behavioural responses means nothing? *** sue-afk is now known as susanm how do you know it's 95% Sol? Iconoclas, mother is a nurse :) and she sees 95% of children? not really; it simply means that we all tend to act in the same way in response to the same stimuli in the world? wow to assume that instantly proves instinct is a leap we can modify our resopnses. we are not sheep Iconoclas, okie, unless you wish to say that all statistics and such evidence based on experience is meaningless i suggest you accept the figure I do wish tosay that, sol Iconoclas, then what does your experience ever teach you not tobelieve statistics, Sol Iconoclas, so if i told you roughly half of all the people on the planet were male, you would sipute this figure? dispute I would probably fall asleep, Sol good philosopher and companion you'd be we could be heroes you asked, I answered that's 99% likely the case [wheel] To what extent is our understanding dependent on opposites? For example, Can we know love only from the contrast of hate; up in contrast to down; good in contrast to evil...etc? bodingo, if we all tend to act the same way to stimuli at birth does that not suggest instinct? ANOTHER either.or question Let's ask question everyone see ya in hell one interpretation, sol; not the only one; the more plausible hypothesis, given the later extreme differentiation of personality, is simply the notion of a common, unformed personality and see how many are "either-or"? sure Frankenstein bodingo, but it is plain to see not everyone is the same at birth IrOn_S0UL? more evidence against instinct, right hey sir Our personal and profoundest suffering is incomprehensible and inaccessible to almost everyone; here we remain hidden from our neighbor bodingo, development is a little different for everyone, the constant we work from is instinct Hardly. Variations are not an argument against instinct. *** CulchAway is now known as Culchie tell me one complex behavioral instinct, some complex behavior, that occurs autonomously and irresistibly that can not be modified *** Disconnected Session Close: Sat Apr 14 21:40:46 2001 Session Start: Sat Apr 14 22:40:07 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "Philosophers' Party. Yikes!" Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sat Apr 14 05:36:18 *** guffawe is now known as satire guffawe: all the people think... one needs to offer arguments to the people; still, when 2 people take different sides.. it is best to try to understand the other person, and not to insist on the own standing me megabot Ooh... doorbelll gotta go guys an gals ;) bye bye off to sit on a fence, muddyBugg? :) arsov, you be bot, hence you no say nothing knew jan but what about in cases where each person is really right, and their argument is really about what-it's-like-to-be-me? guffawe how can you prove that causation exists Do neurons only arraigned in certain ways manifest freewill? jan, causation computes thats not proof mebot replicable Culchie, arranged in a certain way, with a history and experience to pattern a future, yes satire - ahh, not quite; if 2 people differ in teh standings much, then it is best to understand the other party causation computes? what is that supposed to mean? janine, again i replicate, consistently even-does this compuite? fbc: in that case, the person who has evolved free will out of compulsion and addiction is the one to be believed even if you believe in some theory in words does not mean you live it and your brain uses it its still not proof arsov, webots no understand-not programmed for it Sol - How can you be sure? How could you tell the difference between actual freewill and simulated freewill? would the difference even matter? culchie if neurons-arranged-in-a-certain-way are mind, and some minds hhave free will, others don't, then I suspect that arrangement-of-neurons is relevant to free will janine, ah, you reply=we be good bots, eh? satire:)))lol A can follow B consistently for billions of years and still be not due to causation Culchie, i think there's a certain level of awareness at work, and i do accept that at this stage we can't prove it, but things change and evidence arises satire the question of causation has nothing to do with whether we are 'bots' or not culchie But I don;t think anyone knows yet what are the salient characterisitics of brains and neuorons that give rise to mind alright, just out of curiousity, does everyone who is right now so heartily arguing for free will *completely dismiss the LOGICAL POSSIBILITY of a lack thereof*? yes but you accept it , maybe not in words ,but you do or would theoretically die jan, yes, until webots makum bnig decision, no more devils to make us do things, so we do things ourselves and accept the consequences naha, does not compute afk, phone satire, meaning? satire if causation exists, you can still have determinism and we are all 'bots' as you call it. naha, not logical to expect the logical to act ilogically yes i do, nah; humans are not subject to complex behavioral instincts; there programming and conditioning may enslave them though Do animals have freewill too? Is it an either-or thing, or a continumn? satire, how does that pertain to the question? Culchie, there are limits, in terms of personality as noone is ever examining themselves constantly nah I have thought about the logical problems of the free will question for some time now, I began as a mathematician and computer programmer, so I think I have a good grasp of logic, then my interest in philosophy began precisely with the free will question bodingo, you make that statement as if it were somehow self-evident jan, that does not compute-leave4s out heap big factors, likeum that choosing cause effects, makines bigum change to outcome satire you do realise that determinism means all things have a cause right continuum would you mind speaking english satire: can you write more clearly ? nah: it is jan, webots compute that choocsing is done in the now, hence not strictly deterministic fbc, right, so as a mathematicaian do you find the notion of a lack of free will in any way incompatible with human experience? bodingo, I beg to differ... that is too complex a statement to issue as an axiom. satire: the question of the existance of causation is different from the argument of whether we have free will or not. your silly bot acting responses belong in a different debate Scientists have fabricated artifical neurons. If a hundred billion of these artifical neurons were arraigned in the same was a human brain is, would the resulting contraption have freewill? nah no, I think it might be possible to be a human and lack free will, although I am quite sure I have free will humans were free to investigate the pre existying math in nature, and even to imagine some of their own-some choose differently Culchie, so while people establish certain patterns within themselves, there is still the ability to accept freewill completely and act to prove it, if you say any system, even one with an infinite number of inputs or causes is still limited by it's definition, i believe we are entities with some degree of control over ourselves within that...i'm not the best person to argue this:) *** satire is now known as seryus * Arsov still does not understand culchie's concept of "free will" fbc3, ahh, accepting the logical possibility is all I'm aiming at... like I said, I myself do not claim I have no free will, I just think the matter is as unresolvable as the question of whether there is a God well, i don't issue it as an axiom; but it is self-evident to a student of cultural anthroplogy; culture and free will determine consciousness So, does this "freewill" component act in a bio-chemical manner? Can I change the way chemicals in my brain interact just by willing such achange? Free Will would mean making a decision that is not predetermined by your past and present perception bodingo, it was self-evident for several centuries that the earth was flat, what's your point? nah there are extreme cases of people who plainly lack free will, such as those who have been seriously traumatized and must be locked up in mental institutions, although maybe there are healthy humans lacking free will too janine, please pardon my lack of formality in such an obviously serious debate-i find it hard to hold a straight face when i see people choosing to think they hqave no choice, and it has alarming parallels to that other religion that claims the devil makes them do things fbc, you know that's not what I'm talking about Actually, it was always obvious to an astute observer that the Earth is round. culchie - there are examples of not feeling pain when one wishes to! seryus I keep telling you I am not even discussing the question of whether I have a choice or not. why dont you understand that? culchie , true, and there were ever a few who knew better nah yes, the free will question is a bit like the God question, maybe not as undiscussable seryus, jesus, can't you understand that noone is arguing about whether we in fact have free will or not? what do you mean by "free will" Actually, I am asking how we know we have freewill or not. janine, perhaps i am too slow-can you put this problem into something simple enough for me to understand? Culchie, while we are always going to be products of our environment and genetic heritage, there is a certain chaos at work with our experiences and although patterns are formed our ability to examine these patterns ourside of ourselves (and you can choose to accept this or not, it's a faith thing:) is where free-will comes from awareness nah no, I don't know what you're talking about unless you tell me. It seems clear that some people have been so damaged they cannot act freely you should change topic because no one is really saying there is no free will I'm also asking how this freewill works, assuming it exists. seryus, I have put the problem into simple terms several times now... can you be bothered to scroll up and read? culchie: only by taking the leap of faith and living it; free will is a self-fulfilling prophecy that proves its own existence culchie - there are examples of not feeling pain when one wishes to!! I say there is no free will culchie, i have heard some use it for irc, but i could be wrong culchie - which means controlling chemicals with the will you can sort of forget about pain Is it bio-chemical? Can I change the way chemicals in my brain interact just by willing it? Arsov - Are the pain inputs stopped, or merely not acknowledged? Culchie, i think awareness of oneself is the big issue culchie, can you choose to look at the empty of the full half of the glass? seryus: I was saying that we cannot know if cause and effect occurs. when gravity "causes" the apple to fall from the tree (please note! the idea of free will and choice isnt under the scope here) is there causation or coincidence. fbc, I'm talking about you, as a mathematician, comprehending (not accepting) the logical possibility that even you yourself may lack free will without any inconsistencies with what you have so far experienced in life how about we control our thoughts, our feelings come from our thoughts, therefore you can control your feelings pain will be a thing of the past in the future,when it needs to be taken away that is culchie - stopped - i've seen people hitting and braking bricks without feeling pain and if you don't control your thoughts, who does? william is a very dangerous stalker you can imagine anything you want Culchie, i don't know of many other self-aware systems around so the questions is still fun :) janine, in some instances the term co incide means not causally connected, and in others cases they are so connected, even if not obviously culchie I don't know how mind comes out of atoms and neurons, I don't think anyone does. But if I want to do something and it's within my power, sometimes I can will such acts when I want to yes you cannot prove you could have chosen differently,it just feels that way for everybody i think I can't levitate objects using my brain, but I can change the way molecules interact? Interesting. * Culchie revels in his newly found power to alter the laws of physics. Culchie, you can levitate objects with your hands mindout, of what poossible use or likelihood is that notion-why would it ever even come about? * Culchie turns England into a toad. :) because that is something that humans have said they cannot do * Arsov turns culchie into yogurt culchie, i hear people mix chemicals all the time i am a toad, therefore i do toadish things, toads do not think, i will stop thinking... :) *** seryus is now known as afk Sol, you hk? seryus: I am using the term in the sense that it means there is no causal connection. I use it as an opposition to causation in my sentence. its simply about grasping that causation is an assumption. anyway nevermind Stryphe, hk? nevermind toads do think nah it's possible that I don't have free will, it's possible that my intentions are all controlled by lizard people from the center of the earth and it's possible that all my perceptions are controlled by evil demons programming inputs into my brain and I'm really floating in a vat in some infernal laboratory. But I doubt it amen nema even humans say thinking=brain=moving stuff=stuff and toads have a brain My suggestion isn't that we are controlled by outside forces, it is that perhaps what we call freewill is in fact a simulation. must be going, bye all culchie right, it could all be a simulation -- a possibility. But I am pretty immune to fantastic conspiracy theories fbc3, right, but doubting it takes it outside of the realm of logic... it basically boils down to what worldview you feel more comfortable with. As long as you accept that there is no empirically verifiable way to distinguish between these possibilities, you must accept the fact that all are equally credible in a sense Not a conspiracy. A manifestation of bio-chemical brain function. nah not equally credible even flies know guff Culchie, the system is such that the axioms of the lower orders cease at a certain level assignment of probabilities at this point becomes a matter of personal preference hardly something to argue about culchie it would be strange if a thing came into existence (like a mind) that was only able to recieve effects but not generate causes fbc3 - Why? Spinoza opined just that possibility, and he was way smarter than me. ok bbl bye fbc, that statement simply oozes opinion without any logical backbone science says you cannot exist without changing all things Culchie, a brain by itself cannot have freewill, it requires suitable inputs, chemical reactions, i feel, experience to awaken it from the instinctual stage consciousness may be highly variable from human to human and the very act of analyzing it may change it; but like anything else it can be studied scientifically; we've just got to be patient since we live in the equivalent of the psychological dark ages "everything is relative" hehe dark ages? culchie spinoza also posited God as the absolute source of all change. I'm not religious heh, god is such a cop-out:) gambit, if your statement is relative too, what then? Sol^^, hehe And if there is "freewill", then is it what I said - the ability to change how molecules interact merely by willing it? afk, an answer I would presume also, spinoza lived in an era when deterninism was the sine qua non of reason Culchie, it is something that is developed, babies do not have freewill, i believe it requires experience just coz its scary doesn't make it legitimate to ignore the evidence oh no, the free will discussion yes you are either depressed or manic,there are probably only two things to be like fire and water Well, I'm not arguing that "mind" is deterministic. I've already said that brain outputs can, probably do, have randomising varibles. give me a leech for my brain right sol, it's a complex, developed personality trait Sol - Maybe "experience" is also bio-chemical; neurons change how they interact with each other based on chemical changes caused by experience (collected inputs). culchie of course we can change molecules merely by willing it, just take a chemistry class that has a lab requirement and you can will changes in chemicals too, by making your arms pour these chemicals into those chemicals and watch the chemical reactions occur fbc3 - That's not quite the same as changing the bio-chemical interactions of the brain by force of will. But maybe what is really happening is that the mechanical bio-chemical interactions are manifesting a brain output that seems to be freewill, but really isn't. *** X sets mode: -b *!*@dialup-63.208.243.1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net *** X sets mode: +b *!*@*.losangeles1.level3.net *** Fruit was kicked by X ((bluebird) flooder various nicks) bodingo, no, i think the system itself changes, it's not the same kind of thing at all the trouble is you want to do something then you do it at a later date culchie I do not know how to will physical actions in the world without willing my body parts to move about so you have free will in the past Culchie, neural pathways become more defined as people grow, yes Culchie, so things you learn as a child you keep for your entire life fbc3 - But that's what's being asserted happens in the brain. This "freewill" changes outputs, and outputs are ultimately bio-chemical in origin. Culchie, if you are talking about systems, you have to accept we don't have many other self-aware systems to play with:/ can you choose to not use free will culchie if my mind and will ARE my brain and my brain is causing those things to happen, then, ipso facto, my mind is willing those things to happen too Sol - Agreed. But tdoes that mean we could build one? Scientists have fabricated artifical neurons. If a hundred billion of these artifical neurons were arraigned in the same was a human brain is, would the resulting contraption have freewill? Culchie, it's a good question. People agree we can model artificial life from behavioural psychology but astificial intelligence from a cognitists pov is something very debatable Or if we wired a dozen cat brains in parallel processor fashion, would the result be a "mind"? I'm going to go have a drink with my legal advisor bbl Or a hundred hamster brains? culchie if futuristic scientists manufactured a brain with all the salient charactersistics of normal brains that give rise to consciousness, mind, will, perception etc, then I suppose a manufactured brain could have free will too of course it would,it would be like a chemical reaction you start which just carries on fbc3 - So "mind" and therefore "freewill" is a function, not of individual neurons, but of how they are arraigned? culchie did you get my msg re: artificial int/life? Yes, Sol. Culchie, so what can we do in the meantime? We can come in here and yammer about it. heh culchie nobody understands how mind and consciousness etc come out of atoms and chemicals and neurons etc -- certainly not me just discuss until you are satisfied you can stop Although I would observe that, logically, "freewill" as a manifestation of bio-chemical interactions seems to make a little more sense than "freewill" which arises from these bio-chemical reactions and can then turn around and control them. *** herbling is now known as herb4444 if you believe everything is relative like scientists you are going to lose even if you do not know just one thing I know that I don't exist, but you sure must thats why people dont believe it really day to day people choose one thing independent of other things and relate it to other independent things einsteins theories state 'there is one big stuff' The argument that "freewill" is really controlled by physics is more sensical than the idea that physics can be controlled by will. At least to me. sure we're part of some grander system, but we still have control at our level Or a reasonable facimilie of control, at least. facimilie? facsimile * Culchie hides from the spelling police. what is that? :) culchie of course physics is controlled by will, we can change stuff in the physical world, can't we? Not everything, but lots of stuff that matters to us Copy, reprodiction, simulation. nod fbc3 - I'm talking about the specific implication of the concept of "freewill", which is changing the way chemicals are interacting in the brain by willing them to so do. but we do seem to have a tendency to push the limits of our influence say if it's all part of the system then ultimately it may self-terminate:) culchie but we do change chemicals, there isn't a single thing mysterious or supernatural about that. Maybe we cannot change chemicals in axactly the way we might want, and maybe we have to use intelligence and trial-and-error to get it right Mind is a function of the interaction of neurons, most people would agree. "Freewill" suggests that the mind that arises from these interactions can then turn around and alter them by will. An interesting concept. *** Disconnected Session Close: Sat Apr 14 23:25:35 2001 Session Start: Sat Apr 14 23:26:41 2001 *** Now talking in #philosophy *** Topic is 'Welcome to #Philosophy! "Philosophers' Party. Yikes!" Visit our Website: http://www.philosophy-irc.com' *** Set by marden on Sat Apr 14 05:36:13 Culchie, i don't think you can relate the behaviour or limits of one level or system with another, things change in scale Although I will concede that the neurons are creating a mind that seems to be acting of its own accord, at least on some levels. they're not as completely dependent and absolute as you seem to be suggesting Sol - Does "mind" have any other origin than the interaction of neurons? freewill could determine the behavior of particles subject to quantum indetermination Culchie, you can take the building blocks down as many levels as you like perhaps we have much to learn after the single mind, the group and more? Or Qunatum Uncertainity could play a role in introducing a random element into brain function that simulates freewill. particularily the particles in our brains Culchie, that would mean that freewill is random this is not the common idea of freewill But randomness is not the same as freewill, even if it produces effects that cannot be predicted, and which "look" like freewill freewill is born of a random/chaotic element, yes according to culchie:) But then it wouldn't really be freewill, then. It would be a simulation. it's the same only from the outside, not from the inside culchie I agree that randomness is not the same as free will, if it were, then ordinary subatomic particles could be said to have free will French scientist Jean Charon thinks that electrons have spiritual properties while all that may be true for the physical structure, it's behaviour is a system apart from that, if i say that right:) *** X sets mode: +o Skept personnally I think that freewill might come from an infinite imbrication of levels of organization cells, molecules, atoms, particles, quarks, rishons, etc... "free will" is two words. :) * Culchie hides from the spelling police. [marden:#philosophy PING] laws of physics are only approximative *** X sets mode: +o marden so we are not strictly constrained by them a place remains for free will so if someone shoots a missile at your home, you've got a little room for manouever always lie about your home address.. * Meursaut_ nods sagely meurs lol "if undelivered, please return to..." :) free will does not mean omnipotence unfortunately... or fortunately ? * herb4444 hands marden a lemon hooch. if everything was possible perhaps life would not be interesting * Culchie fidgits inanely. I felt this in a lucid dream uhoh hey herb hi marden. i waked up because it was no more interesting I woke up this morning because my cat wanted to be fed, and she used her feline powers of persuasion on me. *** Iconoclas is now known as Iconoclst Y-O-W-L! * Iconoclst needs a cat john :) hi Meur :) :) :):):):) etc *** NiKotino is now known as IrOn_S0UL johngurudemon :)! marden! ! icon, lotsa grinning, what you been up to? working haard JG for Easter well knock it off :) lol don't tempt me tempttempttempt I need to do a lof of work on WWW and I only have an off-peak/weekend suibscription yesterday was good friday in easterspeak, so what's today? Bad Saturday? marden, dju bring yr topic list? "I can resist anything, except temptation" Oscar Wilde great saturday *** IrOn_S0UL is now known as el_loko john maybe lemme look and tomorrow will be 'best sunday' "Absolutely Incredible Tuesday" oh - i was thinking about that dopey movie 'the matrix' no! you were thinkin about that?? --this is a reality topic - do you want me to look for something else? best sunday?? reality topics are okay with me in some remote corner of his brain I am aware there was a movie called The MAtrix and people wne to see it welp okay lemme think... *** el_loko is now known as IrOn_S0UL welp :) yes, me too Icon. I din go see it myself icono it was awful i hated IT and the big dopey quasi-philosophical attraction it pulls *** Disconnected